moisture or extruder slippage?

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scubamatt41
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moisture or extruder slippage?

Post by scubamatt41 » Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:11 am

I have this red filament on the shelf for some time now. Yesterday, 12-8-2013, I loaded it and start to print the"http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:36321". In the pictures you can see that there are some "holes". Can someone tell me If it's moisture or slippage.

ABS @ 0.2, full support, 2nd fill level, fine speed
IMAG0197.jpg
IMAG0197.jpg (164.06 KiB) Viewed 12392 times
IMAG0199.jpg
IMAG0199.jpg (84.71 KiB) Viewed 12392 times
If it is moisture, what is the best way to get the moisture out?

Thanks in advance, cheers
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roller
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Re: moisture or extruder slippage?

Post by roller » Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:22 am

If this filament used to print fine I'd say it's almost certainly moisture as the expansion of water can clear the heated chamber leaving a gap while it fills back up. The best way to fix it is "roast" your filament. There's a number of methods.

For ABS, I don't like to use my oven (if I did I set it at about 60-80C and cook for 4-6 hours - better if it's fan forced) and go putting it in a black drum (air tight) with a lot of desiccant (kitty litter) and it sits out there a couple of days in a row. I bring it in at night just in case the container isn't so air tight because I will get negative pressure as the drum cools and sucks cool but damp air back in. Others leave them on top of their water heaters etc. Anywhere you can leave it for a long time and doesn't get so hot it softens your ABS.

For PLA i just oven roast it at about 40C for 6-8 hours.

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scubamatt41
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Re: moisture or extruder slippage?

Post by scubamatt41 » Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:01 pm

@roller

Could something like this work?

http://www.cnet.com/8301-13553_1-10012446-32.html
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roller
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Re: moisture or extruder slippage?

Post by roller » Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:34 pm

In my experience those things dont get very warm but it might work. The key points to understand are:
- you don't need heat but heat will speed up the process (by lowering the relative humidity and vaporising the water in the filament)
- you do need to keep the humidity low which can be done through warmth or low pressure (wind) or desiccant or a combination of those and you need to keep it low for long enough for the water to bleed out of the filament.

If you can find a really warm and really dry place in your house then just put it there for a few days or even a week.

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scubamatt41
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Re: moisture or extruder slippage?

Post by scubamatt41 » Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:18 pm

I'm going to order this or similar and place it in the cabinet where I keep all my filament. I'm pretty sure this will help to keep the moisture out. http://www.ebay.com/itm/vivarium-heat-m ... 0716632488

They also have a USA connector type

Specification?
1. Size: 15 x 28 cm,1 inch=2.54CM ,so this item is about 5.9 x 11 inches
2. Wattage: 7W
3. EU Plug
4. Rated voltage: 220-240V AC
5. Output temperature : 35 ± 5 Degree Celsius

Again: no connection to seller,

Cheers
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roller
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Re: moisture or extruder slippage?

Post by roller » Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:45 am

Interesting idea. Seems like a sound idea. At that temp it will take a while and remember the most important paart is to keep the air dry. There are all sorts of moisture absorbers on the market but I find the price of kitty litter the most attractive and it seems to work well enough.

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scubamatt41
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Re: moisture or extruder slippage?

Post by scubamatt41 » Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:08 am

Thanks, my intention is to keep it running 24/7. I can also putt my sigars in for that special occasion of when another great object is born ;)
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JuliaDee
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Re: moisture or extruder slippage?

Post by JuliaDee » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:27 am

Search ebay for "laboratory oven". There are usually many for sale for around $100 or so.

roller
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Re: moisture or extruder slippage?

Post by roller » Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:09 pm

I do like the "always on" open though in that it keeps your filament ready to go at all times. If you had it on a timer so it ran for the most humid 8 hours of the day of the day then you can run the mat for a week using about the same energy as the oven for 1 hour. Of course the oven would preclude the need for kitty litter. Both interesting choices.

The ovens I looked at were oven too hot for PLA (pretty much started at 50C and could be a little hotter than than at points inside). I do look forward to getting feedback on how good the 7W matt turns out to be.

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scubamatt41
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Re: moisture or extruder slippage?

Post by scubamatt41 » Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:26 pm

@julia Thanks for the tip.

But all the lab ovens i have seen are (of course) inclosed. I ordered the 35 ± 5 Degree Celsius heat pad and will place it at the lowest point of the cabinet. The are 2 shelfs in it but I'm thinking of replacing them with grated plates.
The door is not that air tight and will relief the warm moist air at the top. If that don't work I will drill some holes in the top of the cabinet :)
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Re: moisture or extruder slippage?

Post by JuliaDee » Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:06 pm

The lab oven I bought (Fisher Scientific) has a hole in the top about 40-50mm diameter. I think you're supposed to stick a thermometer in there - I bought an electronic thermometer and drop the sensor cable through that hole. The oven has a thermostat (or at least a temperature setting knob) but it's not calibrated so you need to supply your own thermometer.

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scubamatt41
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Re: moisture or extruder slippage?

Post by scubamatt41 » Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:11 pm

I'm measuring 57% RH in the cabinet where I store my filament over approx 4 day's now @ 24 deg. C
Still waiting for the heat pad te be delivered :?:
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Re: moisture or extruder slippage?

Post by roller » Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:58 pm

That's pretty good. Of course I have the good fortune of it being a dry week here so my storage drum is open to get the benefits of the extra dry conditions... 18C and 32%RH. So dry just looking at something generates static ;)

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Re: moisture or extruder slippage?

Post by scubamatt41 » Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:29 pm

The outdoor temp. has dropped, here in The Netherlands since the beginning of this topic. The heat pad has been running for 2 days and it seems that the max output temp of the pad is around 23 celsius.
Aldo the heat pad should be able to get to 35 ± 5 Degree Celsius according to the specifications. It could be that the cabinet is not as good as I thought it would be for containing the "heat".

I stuck the spool of red filament, that started this topic, in the oven last weekend. After 3 hours on ± 60 Degree Celsius there was a significant change. Still, for a good result it needs to go in the oven for a longer period.
The scale of the oven is not acurate in the range between 50 and 100 Degree Celsius. So I estimated the setting to be ± 60 Degree Celsius. Trust me, heating the pizza still works ;) Above 60 Degree Celsius, the spool deformd.

My personal conclusion is that preheating moisture absorbing filament like ABS on or around 60 Degree Celsius for at least 4 hours will surely get moisture out. How long other filaments needs the oven treatment I don't know.

Cheers
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roller
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Re: moisture or extruder slippage?

Post by roller » Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:26 am

That's why I fired it as my first suggestion - the oven is the quick and easy way. With your heatpad it might be possible that you are not supplying sufficient current to it which is why you aren't getting the heating/max temp you expect.

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Re: moisture or extruder slippage?

Post by scubamatt41 » Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:47 pm

roller wrote:That's why I fired it as my first suggestion - the oven is the quick and easy way. With your heatpad it might be possible that you are not supplying sufficient current to it which is why you aren't getting the heating/max temp you expect.
I found that leaving the heat pad loose in the cabinet is not good. When I place my temp/RH meter directly on the heat pad it shows that the pad will reach the disired temp from 23° to 34° and the RH drops from 59% to 40%.
The heat pad needs more direct contact area to transfer the heat or I need a smaller inclosure/cabinet which is also more airtight.

Reading back in this topic I still fail to see where you fired the idea of a heat pad
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Re: moisture or extruder slippage?

Post by roller » Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:28 am

Reading back in this topic I still fail to see where you fired the idea of a heat pad
I didn't. I was referring to using the oven.

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