Up experiences and cure for warping:Kapton tape

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virtox
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Up experiences and cure for warping:Kapton tape

Post by virtox » Mon May 02, 2011 11:04 pm

Hi all,

Been a while, but still a very happy Upper :-)
Got mine for about 8 months now, and despite a few quirks and some maintenance, by far still the coolest tool ever!

But seeing as people still have troubles with warping and such, I thought I'd do a quick share of my experiences so far:

Original adhesive/paint :
Works well, especially with multiple coats, you need to get a feel for it, but ultimately too much trouble
(en did I see in the blog, pp3dp has gone over to perfboard ;-) )

Perfboard :
I started out having very good results with the copperles radioshack perfboard (via e-bay) I took the advices and cut the board as diagonally as possible.
I tried various forms of mounting it, but none seemed to be ideal (clips, aluminum u-rail, epoxy) I have several occasions whereby the warping managed to warp the perfboard/tear it loose. Perfboard needed degreasing a lot and it started to degrade quite quickly.
Also the extra mass of the perfboard and mounting seems to worsen any jitter in the prints

Kapton tape:
My favorite!
I got a 30m roll of 50mm wide kapton tape. It's a bit tricky to tape it properly and tight enough without any trapped airbubbles, but once it's on, all it needs is a quick wipe with acetone prior to printing and proper pre-heating.

Some other thoughts:
I spent a few bucks on a feeler gauge set (?) works a lot more comfortable to get the platform level against the nozzle.

After many prints I have found that thicker rafts don't really help against warping for me.. it seems to worsen it as the raft itself start to warp.
With the kapton I print with minimal raft settings and would love a raftless option, the kapton is that GOOD!

For larger massive objects I often add a 0.25-0.5 mm line around the objects at 5 mm intervals. (the line isn't actually printed but the raft layers for it are.
At 2 mm raft this makes the raft large and flat raft with wide flat bands (second half of raft structure layers), which seems to work well to keep the most problematic models down.

I got some PLA from mendel-parts.com (slow as #@ but has some nice stock of tools and materials, kapton and gauges) but have not dared using it at default temps and very hesitant to tinker with internal up-settings. Perhaps I'll save up for and hack an extra extruder.

As much as I want to support pp3dp, low funds have forced me to be very picky about suppliers.
I got a variety of ABS from reprapsource, but after initial good results, the quality was below standards (filament diameter wobble 1.5-2.0mm, not cool! he now discontinued the 1.75mm abs) But still, got a few pieces of signal yellow which are very nice.
So hoping to see some color materials from pp3dp? What's the hold up?

I needed and have ordered some replacement parts over time (build platform, nozzle) but find these a bit too expensive.
I'll be trying out some custom cut 4mm aluminum plates soon (ebay, only a few bucks)

And I will do my best to drop in here more often :-)

Cheers,

Virtox

PS. on logging in, I got a too many failed login attempts procedure. I know it wasn't me, so spammers now trying to hack accounts?
Last edited by virtox on Sat May 07, 2011 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

chengsam2000
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Re: Up experiences and cure for warpgin:Kapton tape

Post by chengsam2000 » Tue May 03, 2011 8:34 am

i have tried blue tape
just "a bit"better then original green paint

you meant wider raft is better then thicker raft right?
thanks for your sharing

chengsam2000
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Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:55 pm

Re: Up experiences and cure for warpgin:Kapton tape

Post by chengsam2000 » Thu May 05, 2011 4:24 am

thanks for your tip
kapton tape works really good
but still got a small warp in one angle.....
i found there is two different tape
one is made by Teflon the other is by kapton
the have very little price difference and have same looking

virtox
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Re: Up experiences and cure for warping:Kapton tape

Post by virtox » Sat May 07, 2011 9:33 am

I use a slightly modified platform leveler (4 instead of 3 screws)
And use a feeler gauge to calibrate the distance at all corners and center.
Depending on material and project I use 0.1, 0.15 or 0.2 mm.

And as long as it pre-heats enough and uses a wide flat raft, I had no warping or coming loose.
After printing I use one of the small chisels to carefully pop a corner without damaging the tape.
The parts usually fly off, and I can print within seconds (if your quick/lucky platform and nozzle are still heated)

Not all kapton is apparently the same. Got mine from mendel-parts.com (slow but good stuff)
Get it from a reprap supplier, most seem to know what they are selling.
The kapton seems to work better after a few prints.
And a little degreasing with aceton once in a while keeps the kapton clean.

r03ert0
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Re: Up experiences and cure for warping:Kapton tape

Post by r03ert0 » Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:17 pm

Does anyone know where to get Kapton tape online in Europe?
(In France preferably... but I don't have much hope...)

I also tried using perfboard for warping, but all I was able to find in french electronic shops was too little...

Does anyone have a ebay link, or a link to some other online supplier for either Kapton tape or perfboard?

thanks!
roberto

virtox
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Re: Up experiences and cure for warping:Kapton tape

Post by virtox » Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:19 pm

I got my copperles perfboard here :
http://cgi.ebay.com/Microminature-Prepu ... 1e640d0374

And cut a plate-sized square from it as diagonal as possible.

It worked well, but the board degrades fairly quickly, and large prints just warped the perfboard with it.

My kapton came from here:
http://www.mendel-parts.com/index.php/c ... 33mtr.html
But he upped his prices since last..

araspitfire
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Re: Up experiences and cure for warping:Kapton tape

Post by araspitfire » Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:57 am

I'll just chime in on mendelparts kapton... it is not 'real' kapton, but it works very well for our purposes.. I''ve heard that the brand name kapton does not work as well..

Al...

krouviere
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Re: Up experiences and cure for warping:Kapton tape

Post by krouviere » Sat Aug 06, 2011 3:51 am

I've been having pretty good luck with a tape/paint hybrid approach.

I use 3M "Automotive Performance Masking Tape" (light green in color, bought at auto parts store), and a thin coat of heavy acrylic paint (like artists use). If you rub the tape on the platform you'll get good tape to platform adhesion, and the paint sticks well to the tape. Let the paint dry for a few minutes so it's not wet to the touch. The ABS seems to stick really well. It can be a little challenge to get the model off the platform though especially if you let it cool.

Here's a pic:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/fotoman/60 ... hotostream

odiegel
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Re: Up experiences and cure for warping:Kapton tape

Post by odiegel » Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:43 am

Hi All,
I not a lot of people reporting back on warping cures, but the problme is that we are all using different parts so are, essentially comparing apples with oranges.
Can I suggest we all use a square 130mm x 130 mm x 3mm thick to test and see if our various solutions can handle it?
And printed in solid mode at say 0.3mm resolution.
when I print parts that are mor or less round, I very rarely have problems. It's the squarish parts that extend near the corners of the platform that give problems.
Cheers
olaf

virtox
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Re: Up experiences and cure for warping:Kapton tape

Post by virtox » Fri Aug 19, 2011 8:44 am

I have never had much success with more solid items that fill the platform.

But for smaller solid parts or more hollow larger parts the (mendel-parts) kapton holds up well with ABS.

I recently added a silicon heat pad between the heater block and the platform, as after nearly a year the heater block has warped very slightly leaving some thin gaps.

The silicon pad greatly improved the heat transfer to the platform.
(granted, switching platform will be a bit more difficult now.)

With (copperless) perfboard larger solid parts worked better, but either my perfboard started warping, or the printed piece itself started to rip itself apart during printed.
This was with large almost solid block like structures of 80 x 80, roughly 50 mm high.
Regardless of fill setting or z-resolution, the difference in shrinkage between top and bottom is too much.
I have yet to try to glue the perfboard to the platform.

I have wanted to try the paint tape, but I can't seem to find any of the high-temp (3m) painters tape (blue or green).

Brit
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Re: Up experiences and cure for warping:Kapton tape

Post by Brit » Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:15 am

Where would one get Kapton tape in New Zealand?

I found some vero board, but it was quite large enough to cut at much of an angle. It didn't work at all with a large flat area of (1/2) my face of a scan from a few years ago as illustrated. I even put clamps on it's edges as it was printing ..and then the mesh just puled away, so I tuned it off not wanting mys studio to burn down over night.

Next today after spending a few hours unsuccessfully to Boolean a hollowed out area in the back, I decided to cut it again in quarters and print on its edge. But the machine height nozzle-platform calibration seemed to have mysteriously changed. The platform hit the nozzle, and the software shut off. After many, many retries and resets, (well over an hour of trying again to re-calibrate the height and print) when I pressed print it would not longer go high enough and the printer extruded about an inch over the platform...even though the new calibration seemed right when calibrating the nozzle.
Attachments
Valentines.jpg
a rendering of a scan of my face to be printed (with displaced heart)
Valentines.jpg (49.49 KiB) Viewed 10599 times
face rp 2.jpg
the beginning of the face print with the mesh pulling apart
face rp 2.jpg (115.86 KiB) Viewed 10599 times

Madox
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Re: Up experiences and cure for warping:Kapton tape

Post by Madox » Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:14 pm

Hi Brit,

I bought some cheapie stuff from DealXtreme and it seems to work well for PLA at least. I would not recommend it for ABS.
For something that large, have you considered printing in PLA? Contact 3D Printing Systems and see if they can sort you out.

If you have to use ABS, for something that large, you'll have to preheat your platform for a LONG time and make sure your room is WARM (and dry)... which might be hard in NZ at this time unless you have heating.

I've given up on ABS until spring/summer :)

I was just taking a video of 'kapton' aka 'Cheap' "High-Temperature Tape" for the NZ 3D Printing Systems person to show how well it sticks...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtIzcf1zIs0

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wackojacko
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Re: Up experiences and cure for warping:Kapton tape

Post by wackojacko » Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:10 pm

I have also found that not all vero board is equal, some sticks, some the veto board warps. Make sure you print hollow and pre heat for ages. I will cover the table to insulate the platform until the corners are too hot to touch, then remove the insulation just before it starts printing.
Bruce
http://www.3DPrintingSystems.com

Need help with your printer, check out our Youtube channel.
https://www.youtube.com/user/3dprinting ... /playlists

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