Pla problems

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Form
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Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:20 am

Pla problems

Post by Form » Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:07 pm

Gday everyone,
I have a up mini (3days old) and though I have heaps of cad experience I'm new to cam (I usually sub out for that). Ive printed seamlessly with the original white abs but wanted to lost wax cast something so bought some pla from a aust based store. I haven't been able to successfully print anything yet. It sometimes starts but then has trouble feeding. The feed makes a stuttering sound and nothing further extrudes from the head. The pla is pink (if that makes any difference) and is also 1.75mm (if that makes any difference).
Any ideas ?
Ps I was warned regarding the use of different brand pla use but as there isn't one for the mini yet and I have some work backed up I took the punt.

marto
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Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:01 pm

Re: Pla problems

Post by marto » Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:25 pm

I have been wondering if anyone had tried PLA yet.

A few of the issues which have been documented on the plus is the PLA heating up and then getting stripped out so it fails to feed. Also it softening before going into the extruder and not pushing through properly.

The stuttering noise you are hearing is probably your extruder losing steps. I wonder if its an issue with the extruder not being hot enough or it jamming.

Anyway interested to know how you go with this.

Steve

ftdesigns
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Re: Pla problems

Post by ftdesigns » Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:59 pm

i had the same issue on my plus with pla. either your nozzle is clogged or your gear has too much material stuck in it that its slipping. i mainly print with abs and get the gear slippage after doing many hours of printing, so now once a week and clean the gear regardless if it slips or not.. kind of like a PM (preventive maintenance).

pp3dp.nl
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Re: Pla problems

Post by pp3dp.nl » Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:28 pm

Well on the Plus you pretty much need an external fan on the right for larger models of PLA because the motor will become hot. So the fan will cool the motor and the printed model for better quality.

I haven't tried PLA on the Mini but I guess a fan should work the same only the enclosure is a bit in the way.

Form
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Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:20 am

Re: Pla problems

Post by Form » Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:35 am

Thanks for the help guys. It's great to have support and ideas a keystroke away.
I used a fan blasting directly onto the nozzle and printed 2 items (the sample bunny and a simple tapered ring) and both printed perfectly.
Perhaps the nozzle temp is too high even on the pla setting ?
I noticed another poster modified his printer with a switchable temp down grade circuit.
Anyway something to think about and perhaps test for other up mini users.
Also in case any other users cast - the pla cast into 9ct yellow gold using the lost wax process well. I repaired some small imperfections in the pla with pink injection wax and pre filed and emeried before casting. The pla burnt out well and the cast was porosity free to a acceptable level.

ftdesigns
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Re: Pla problems

Post by ftdesigns » Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:00 pm

did you print the sprues on your model as well?

what z res?

how big was the pattern?

Form
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Re: Pla problems

Post by Form » Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:51 am

G'day ftdesigns
The casting I did was for the simple ladies ring. The ring was 10mm wide tapering down to 4mm and 3mm thick tapering to 1.4 mm. It had a 2mm tapered hole in the top as a guide for the 10 point diamond that needed to be gypsy (flush) set into it.
I didn't print sprues into it as I thought it would be easier to clean up and repair and holes from uneven printing without them (I would definately do it this way again as I was able to file and emery all surfaces of the pla before casting).
I got some shrinkage in the pla print (around a size) which worked out favourably. As previously mentioned I filled some holes in the pla with injection wax and filed over the top of them. The pla files well with a nice amount of resistance through the stroke (feels a little gritty though).
I sprued with pink injection wax (one sprue only onto the bottom of the shank).
Print was highest resolution (.2 - up mini).

Very simple ring but it was nice to use the printer and saved material (vs hand make) or time (vs hand carved wax) or money (vs subbing out for printing and casting).

Hope that helps

roller
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Re: Pla problems

Post by roller » Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:36 am

Form, PLA works better with careful temp tweaking (which we can't do) and immediate cooling once it leaves the nozzle. PLAs viscosity doesn't increase as rapdily as it cools so we need to give it a good chilling with a fan as it comes out.

Also much PLA softens from 40C and you will find your stepper motor on the Mini gets up to about 60C and sits there. Anything you can do to keep the stepper cool will stop the filament deforming while it feeds and forming a jam (it often just piles up on itself in the hotend before the heat chamber making the cross section to thick and then jams.

If you get a jam clean out your extruder teeth as the PLA is stripped away easier by the drive gear and quickly fills up the teeth.

With the Mini leave the top and front door open and keep a fan blowing in there and you will probably be fine. Some PLA's are worse than others (my white is particularly easy to melt) so switch around your colours and sources ... eventually you will find one that works a little better.

Form
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Re: Pla problems

Post by Form » Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:01 am

Thanks roller,
It's interesting and usefull information and though I was on the right track (thanks to pp3dp's earlier post) its nice to have some temp figures and more info to back up the "fan on the nozzle" technique (which worked well on the 2 prints i have tried) suggested by him.
Cheers

roller
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Re: Pla problems

Post by roller » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:08 am

I had the Mini for a while and have lots of PLA experiences having lived on it exclusively for the last year (on repraps) and the Minis design does work against it a little with a lot of heat getting trapped - what you want for ABS but a problem for PLA.

pp3dp.nl
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Re: Pla problems

Post by pp3dp.nl » Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:56 pm

Also, put some of those CPU coolers on the motor. They don't cost and weigh much and cool the stepper a little extra. And I wanted to try but never had the time, the new print heads have an extra connection which looks like it could power a fan. Maybe someone can design something to hold a fan that is blowing on the right side of the motor and on the PLA model.

Oral
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Location: Turkey

Re: Pla problems

Post by Oral » Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:26 am

Hi everybody,

I've been using Up mini for 2 months. It prints ABS material very well. But last week i put PLA material in it and does not work properly. It gives noises from the extruder head. And when hearing that noise the machine starts to give material in a discontinued manner. Furthermore it might be clogged in some cases. I read the replies in this topic and tried extra fan but nothing happened. What should i do to use PLA filament on my machine ?

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scubamatt41
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Re: Pla problems

Post by scubamatt41 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:30 pm

Hi all,

I printed PLA on the UP mini with the original PLA setting. The print sheet was not the org perfboard but a sheet of PMMA. Some prefer to use Polycarbonate but I haven't tried it yet. The PLA came from my Dutch supplier Formfutura and stuck very well to the print sheet. The result on the model was also very good. Never had the nozzle clogged or the motor to hot.:? Maybe that is still laying around the corner :shock:

The mini sits in it's own cabinet and I can leave the front door of the machine open without getting to much draft onto the object. The org fan cover/lid is fully open. I know from all the posts here that when printing with PLA it seems you can never get enough draft or fans blowing over the object. Somehow my setup seems to work. :)
Always breath out on the way UP

Oral
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Location: Turkey

Re: Pla problems

Post by Oral » Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:08 pm

hi scubamatt,

You are very lucky working with pla so unproblematic manner. I used orginal pp3dp natural white pla filament and all the covers were removed. Plus i used 50cm dia.( yes ,50 cm dia.) :D aspirator fan directed to stepper motor. Nothing happened. It gives material in a discontinued manner with a ugly noise.

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scubamatt41
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Re: Pla problems

Post by scubamatt41 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:58 pm

Hi, Yes I concider myself very lucky. It started with my UP mini printing "new out of the box". Apart from some issues I'am very lucky with 3rd party filament, 3D laywoo, taulman nylon, formfutura PLA or formfutura (FF) ABS.
At this moment I use the FF white ABS and it's excelent.

I have to stop praising or perhaps lady luck fails me ;)
Always breath out on the way UP

marto
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Re: Pla problems

Post by marto » Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:10 am

@ Oral

Have you managed to get it to extrude any of the PLA? It may be necessary to extrude slightly at a higher temp (ABS setting) to start off with to clear any of the left over ABS out of the nozzle. If you try and extrude with PLA setting it may be too cold for the left over ABS to flow. And could jam/strip filament as you describe.

Steve

roller
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Re: Pla problems

Post by roller » Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:06 pm

marto wrote:@ Oral

Have you managed to get it to extrude any of the PLA? It may be necessary to extrude slightly at a higher temp (ABS setting) to start off with to clear any of the left over ABS out of the nozzle. If you try and extrude with PLA setting it may be too cold for the left over ABS to flow. And could jam/strip filament as you describe.

Steve
Also, once you have had a jam with PLA it will tend to fill the drive gear with plastic debris that will prevent the drive gear biting into the PLA as well in the future - resulting in further slipping. The same issue occurs if you start with the print head too close to the perfboard. With ABS this is rarely a problem but the back pressure with PLA can cause the occasional slip which across a large first layer of PLA can fill up the teeth with bits ripped off the filament and it starts slipping. Some filaments are much worse than others for this.

I've not seen this problem with repraps but I've always had much bigger drive gears and the ability to adjust the pressure at which filament is pressed into the drive gear. Search around the board for mods to add this feature to an Up extruder.

Oral
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Location: Turkey

Re: Pla problems

Post by Oral » Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:26 pm

marto wrote:@ Oral

Have you managed to get it to extrude any of the PLA? It may be necessary to extrude slightly at a higher temp (ABS setting) to start off with to clear any of the left over ABS out of the nozzle. If you try and extrude with PLA setting it may be too cold for the left over ABS to flow. And could jam/strip filament as you describe.

Steve
Hi,

I printed big parts with pla today. No problem occured. The part needs full material flow. It was a roof of a model house. But when i try to print house's window the problem occurs. The pla comes out a discontinued manner and extruder starts sounding. I also used thickest layer adjustment and fastest speed on the roof. Otherwise it begins sounding. After printing four roof tops i tried printing the wall with windows. I think that is not a ABS problem. I agree with roller's comment above.

roller
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Re: Pla problems

Post by roller » Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:20 am

But when i try to print house's window the problem occurs. The pla comes out a discontinued manner and extruder starts sounding. I also used thickest layer adjustment and fastest speed on the roof. Otherwise it begins sounding. After printing four roof tops i tried printing the wall with windows. I think that is not a ABS problem.
Can you post a picture? As a long time architectural modeller with repraps and now the Up! maybe I can help or learn something from your experiences.

Oral
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Location: Turkey

Re: Pla problems

Post by Oral » Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:51 pm

2013-03-07 21.24.18.jpg
problems with windows on walls
2013-03-07 21.24.18.jpg (227.69 KiB) Viewed 18254 times
2013-03-07 21.22.47.jpg
attention to left bottom part ,please.It is reddish.
2013-03-07 21.22.47.jpg (213 KiB) Viewed 18254 times
2013-03-07 21.21.09.jpg
roof (4 parts)
2013-03-07 21.21.09.jpg (218.64 KiB) Viewed 18254 times
roller wrote:
But when i try to print house's window the problem occurs. The pla comes out a discontinued manner and extruder starts sounding. I also used thickest layer adjustment and fastest speed on the roof. Otherwise it begins sounding. After printing four roof tops i tried printing the wall with windows. I think that is not a ABS problem.
Can you post a picture? As a long time architectural modeller with repraps and now the Up! maybe I can help or learn something from your experiences.

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