UP MINI

Support for UP mini. To report a bug, post with a title [BUG REPORT]. To request a feature, post with a title [FEATURE REQUEST]
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Numonic
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UP MINI

Post by Numonic » Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:43 pm

Is the current Up Mini beta still? What has everyone here done with the issues of the Up have they been offered there money back for the defective product? Software upgrades might be enough I've heard there are issues with the way wires are set up internally, Im really worried and I haven't even purchased one yet :shock:

amwales
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Re: UP MINI

Post by amwales » Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:31 pm

Hi, Numonic

I bought an UP! mini a few weeks ago.
I was planning on buying the original UP! plus but saw the mini announcements and waited, I was worried too but not enough to be put off.
When my mini arrived, I was excited, it was really well packed, but one of the plastic parts was broken, this didn't put me off, I'll print a new part.
I was excited, like being a kid at christmas. I loaded up the software and started printing, I had something in my hand within an hour of opening the box.
The plan was to use the printer to build robot parts, what have I done so far? built robot parts :)
I have been using tinkercad, I started with 123D but just ended up using tinkercad because it was simpler.
One day I wanted to print a collection of parts, I left it print, came back to a mess, I guess the print lifted.
My parts on the whole are quite small but when I printed several I saw the lifting issue, It only happened once, then I saw rollers' posts about lifting and large pieces warping and the unlevel platform. So I used a piece of folded paper and got my platform level that way. I have had trouble getting support material off the bottom of prints, I have had trouble printing a replacement part, but you know what? I don't care, I'm printing and it's working and I rather pleased I took the dive and left with a piece of kit that prints 3d stuff. I haven't printed a 100x100mmx3mm flat plastic square yet, maybe it will lift, maybe it wont, so far its working perfectly for what I wanted it to do. You can see my pics of recent prints below.

Image
Image
Image

My tinkercad parts

https://tinkercad.com/things/bE9FDvOQlWK-sbracket5
https://tinkercad.com/things/3CqvHBanR1j-scoupling5
https://tinkercad.com/things/bPBRNdtBnXM-splate4
https://tinkercad.com/things/hZGx11f8n93-sbase4b

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Numonic
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Re: UP MINI

Post by Numonic » Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:50 pm

I was excited too until I saw a bunch of threads saying there were so much issues with it. I have how ever seen some great prints even though they have some issues. Based on what you have been dealing with what was the issue when you got it? Was it only the bed of the printer that needed a piece of paper? to level it thats all? I'm looking to print robot parts as well bot not for robotics. But for action figures they come in many pieces and are articulated. Just worried about pieces failing. Don't know how to combat this since I've never personally printed on my own. I've only send parts to be made by companies such as Shapeways. They are great I just need ABS plasctic and I need quicker turn around times for my pieces for trouble shooting and assembly.

Thanks for the posts and reply it was really helpfull.

roller
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Re: UP MINI

Post by roller » Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:50 pm

For those that don't understand the issue a bed that is 0.2mm too low in a corner can result in a failed print. This problem is exacerbated if your prints have a broad base because they will a) realise all of the slope and be further away from the print bed at the low side and b) will tend to show the most warp and therefore exert the greatest lifting tendency.

Now the Mini has no inbuilt mechanical mechanism to level the platform and it seems the manufacturing doesn't necessarily make them perfectly so there will be variation in how much your bed is out ... this may be improving with refinement of manufacturing or it may be an intrinsic design flaw and it will always be the luck of the draw. Only time and a number of Mini owners reporting back will tell. I also suspect because the Up printers are so easy to use we will maybe see a bias towards those who have issues show up on the boards. Personally, I would have just tapped a thread into each corner of the hold down brackets so you can dial in an adjustment if it appears necessary (are you hearing me PP3DP?)

Now to give you an idea of what the variation. Being 0.2 mm (two sheets of paper) or more too low in a corner can fail a print. In my printer I am 1.3 mm out so I need 10-14 sheets of paper (depending on the paper) to level this out. Also in such an extreme case this also can put whatever you use as a shim (10+ sheets of paper aren't practical) in the way of the extruder (in the case of the part supplied by 3Dprintingsystems to fix the issue). So if you are luckier than I, you may find you can get away with the slant you have.

My other criticism of the Mini was the bed heat which is a bit cool for more conventional raftless printing surfaces like Kapton tape. 50C is a little cool. I have pulled of a few ABS prints at 60C (on a reprap) but hotter is better. Solution like gecko may be a solution to this ... the perfboard works well but does not give a perfectly smooth base but for printing with a raft I think it's brilliant and I am going to try similar on my repraps over the Christmas break.

Finally, I am not so sure about the magnets holding extruder. I have found the extruder has moved several times mid print. Now if this is a design flaw (it may be due to some other issue - remember I have a lot of tilt on my bed so I might be dragging too much somewhere still) it's trivial to fix ... one judiciously placed cable tie should sort that out.

Tiertime-Edward
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Re: UP MINI

Post by Tiertime-Edward » Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:53 am

Numonic wrote:Is the current Up Mini beta still? What has everyone here done with the issues of the Up have they been offered there money back for the defective product? Software upgrades might be enough I've heard there are issues with the way wires are set up internally, Im really worried and I haven't even purchased one yet :shock:
Hi Numonic,

Some UP! Mini’s customers are having issues with their platform being unlevel. Most of the original Mini platforms have a variance of less than 1mm between sides and this can be calibrated by the software to resolve the platform levelling.

We are working hard on improving the tolerances so new Mini customers will have a more level platform. The printing quality will not be affected after calibration, except the for raftless printing.

The platform PCB temperature does not go as high as the UP! Plus, because the building size on the UP! mini is 120 x 120 x120mm. The perfboard is enough to hold the ABS model and with reduced warping.

About the magnet that holds the extruder, it can hold the extruder tightly, that would be not a problem. If you do get warping it’s best to stop the print and check everything is okay.

We have released a new program that can be used for calibrate the platform level. Please use that program to calibrate the platform levelling. The only sacrifice of using the software calibration is no raftless printing feature for large models, but you can still print raftless on small objects.

If any customer purchases a defective printer either ourselves or our dealers will either replace or repair his machine free of charge.

roller
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Re: UP MINI

Post by roller » Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:37 pm

Actually the software calibration has a huge effect on the Mini. Because you have to print with a raft and the raft has to be bigger than the print (software makes it that way) the maximum print area of a software calibrated Mini is only 105mm x 105mm. I have just discovered this tonight. I tried to print a 110mm x 110mm print tonight and the software said it was too big to print. So the Mini is actually only a 105mm x 105mm printer at the moment due to the software limitation.

On the temperature - ABS hardens below 60C ... in the hardening process it shrinks and warps. If the bed were 60C this would be hot enough ... at 50C it warps. On a calibrated bed on prints prone to warping I get lifting on the perfboard - this is simply due to lack of temperature. Perhaps your special ABS stays soft at a lower temp but in my experiments the opposite is actually true and definitely is not soft even if left clamped directly to the bed.

Further, printing raftless wastes a lot of plastic. I just finished my first roll of filament. Out of 700grams I have 240grams of rafts left over. That's 35% waste!

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Numonic
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Re: UP MINI

Post by Numonic » Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:06 pm

All information posted about this matter is helpfull :) Thanks everyone, I'm still leaning towards the Up Mini it's the most affordable and best made unit to me still for space and efficiency.
Any word on what action PP3DP will be doing about this? Will there be any fixes via Manufacturing for the upcoming Up mini's people will purchase as well as other issues mentioned on this forum concerning Up Mini? I won't be purchasing the machine till these issues have been resolved but thanks for the current updates on this :)

mr6k
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Re: UP MINI

Post by mr6k » Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:24 pm

Edward,
I think many will be concerned at your statement "We are working hard on improving the tolerances so new Mini customers will have a more level platform.".
What about existing customers?. I assume you will be coming up with a mechanical adjustment for the platform, that does not need a crude interim fix, and believe it should also be supplied free of charge to all existing mini owners. After all you claim the mini can print 3D models to dimensions of 120mm x 120mm on the X & Y plane. This is at present untrue as Roller has pointed out and the actual usable area is 105mm x 105mm. So all existing customers could in theory return their mini printers for a full refund as they do not meet the published specification. Please bear in mind that failing to satisfy your present and future customers could easily undo all the good marketing that both you, and posters on this forum offer.

regards

Peter

roller
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Re: UP MINI

Post by roller » Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:57 pm

Plus it seems to me the 1.18 software fixe does not work. If you use the full 1mm range (not enough for me anyway - need 1.3) the final print seems to mess up the first few layers of the real print. I find in every print around 100mm plus one corner has no interlayer adhesion and the raft layer has heavy adhesion. So every single full are print fails dismally. So although it's 105x105 capable - print quality is poor if you fill this region corner to corner.

amwales
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Re: UP MINI

Post by amwales » Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:32 pm

105mmx105mm, seriously? I paid 1200GBP for something that would work as advertised, I feel that's certainly not as advertised.
I've only been printing small parts so far, but was intending to make some larger cases for electronic parts later, when I bought the mini instead of the plus it was because of the print area being just 20mm less, not 35mm. I really don't want to be a beta tester, but I don't want to return my UP either. Please update the literature, until this issue is fixed, advertising a 120mmx120mm build area is quite misleading.

Blown454
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Re: UP MINI

Post by Blown454 » Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:50 am

Hi All,

I have been following this unlevel bed issue that the Up Mini apparently has with anticipation of the final outcome. I have recently bought the bigger brother to the Mini, so it doesn't affect me, but still interested. I read above where 'Edward' says; "If any customer purchases a defective printer either ourselves or our dealers will either replace or repair his machine free of charge", so isn't this issue somewhat resolved? I am not familiar with Edward (no disrespect, I'm new around here!), but am assuming he is someone from the company that makes the printers (or maybe distributer?), and that sure sounds like a great solution to the problem. Maybe it is being without your new printer for the time it is repaired that is an issue? Not sure, but just wanted to make sure I was understanding everything myself as I am considering the Mini for a colleague that wanted something small and easy to use. I hope everyone gets to use their printer to its fullest soon, I would be bummed if I were in some of your shoes with a new printer not working to its potential. Good luck to all!

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Numonic
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Re: UP MINI

Post by Numonic » Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:20 am

Wondering if it's safe to say the problems have been fixed if I do purchase one both mechanical issues as well as software? I'm talking about putting the printed shim or even the folded paper shim? I'm looking forward to getting this machine but I don't really have the time to be tinkering with the machine. I just need to print figures and parts as much as I can. I don't want to use other companies to print my work it's getting expensive and too time consuming between iterations and final functional figures

twocycler
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Re: UP MINI

Post by twocycler » Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:55 am

I bought an Up! Mini as soon as it came out. I also have owned an Up! Plus, built an original Makerbot Cupcake and have a fair amount of experience with the Stratasys UPrint line. Having said this, i have followed this recent discourse regarding the Up! Mini and problems a few have had with leveling, software updates, wall thicknesses, print volumes, raft less printing...i think that mostly covers it.

I want to say that i think Delta Micro has done a fantastic job with the Mini as well as the software update to 1.18. Is this printer an absolutely foolproof, be all end all for the wife and kids? My answer would be no. I will say that i think for approximately $1000 it is exceptional. To find a competing product that offers the print quality, ease of use, reliability, and professional design and packaging, not to mention low cost print materials...well i cant think of anything truly comparable for the price.

I have been traveling for the past month and was not able to try the 1.18 beta software. From comments i have read on here, i had already discounted the effectiveness of the software platform leveling routine. I quickly ran the leveling routine today, and found that the far right side of my platform was 0.7mm lower than the far left. Previously, i had some large, flat prints lift on the right side. I made the platform config changes and voila, the part printed perfectly with no raft lifting. Everything worked as advertised.

After reading the thread about mechanically adjusting the platform height, it seems very simple. If your platform is over 1.0mm out of level, then why not just loosen the screw and insert a 1.0mm washer, then fine tune the height with the software. Im sorry, i just feel that there has been some complaining going on that is not accurately representative of everyone's experience with the Up! Mini.

Thanks Delta Micro!

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Numonic
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Re: UP MINI

Post by Numonic » Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:27 am

I wasn't saying the machine is not great or there pricing or there products i'm just saying I'd like it to work as advertised. I haven't built any repraps or even have the expertise to make one. I am a 3d modeler working on action figures and really just want to make my own prints, when you print out something from your regular printer are you worrying about everything internally not aligned or manufactured well? No it just prints bam and you get your copy of what ever it is you printed. I'm asking for that which is what they advertised, and I'm asking if the versions for purchase now have those issues fixed when purchasing this machine. I'm glad you pointed those things out looking on your experience it pleases me to see this machine is great and worth purchasing even with your background with dealing with the commercial machines. :)

Tiertime-Edward
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Re: UP MINI

Post by Tiertime-Edward » Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:47 am

Numonic wrote:Wondering if it's safe to say the problems have been fixed if I do purchase one both mechanical issues as well as software? I'm talking about putting the printed shim or even the folded paper shim? I'm looking forward to getting this machine but I don't really have the time to be tinkering with the machine. I just need to print figures and parts as much as I can. I don't want to use other companies to print my work it's getting expensive and too time consuming between iterations and final functional figures
Hi, we are improving the platform leveling on the mini and try to make it much level. While the UP! mini is Indeed not mechanical adjustable on the platform leveling like the UP! plus, the platform level is still easier to achieve by software level calibration since v1.18. Software can make sure the platform like 100% leveling. It will not affect your printing quality.

Well, it is not meaning that the machanical calibration on the platform level is not possible at all. I have made a post here, http://www.pp3dp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2041, which introduced a way to level the platform in left and right side.

We are always hoping and working on make the UP! printer easy to use, so no need to tinker with the machine. We are always improving the software, supported the vertical calibration and now have the platform level calibration. Software calibration is the easiest way for most users who don't like tinker with the machine. After calibration, the data will be saved into SD card, so you don't need to calibrate again once be done.

Thank you.

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Numonic
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Re: UP MINI

Post by Numonic » Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:27 am

Edward thanks for the update :) happy to hear at least the software will take care of this issue looking forward to my purchase ;)

roller
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Re: UP MINI

Post by roller » Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:58 am

Just be aware Numonic that while you use software leveling your maximum object print size is about 105x105mm because the leveling requires a raft to compensate. This may not be an issue for you as long as your leveling is in range (less than 1mm out at the moment). It also seems to mean you use more plastic for each print as you not only need a raft but the raft has more material in it.

twocycler
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Re: UP MINI

Post by twocycler » Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:03 am

Roller,

When you bought your mini did you see that it used perf boards? How do you think you are going to print raft less with a perf board?

Why dont you exchange your Mini for a Plus, then you can print w/o a raft, adjust table screws and be happy?

Tiertime-Edward
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Re: UP MINI

Post by Tiertime-Edward » Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:45 am

roller wrote:Just be aware Numonic that while you use software leveling your maximum object print size is about 105x105mm because the leveling requires a raft to compensate. This may not be an issue for you as long as your leveling is in range (less than 1mm out at the moment). It also seems to mean you use more plastic for each print as you not only need a raft but the raft has more material in it.
Hi please you read this post regarding the printing size. The actual priting size on the UP! mini is 120 x 120 x 120, even you calibrate the platform level. What's more, we are going to change the softare, so even the bottom can print 120 x 120.

The other thing is, the software will allow the leveling range for 1.5mm very soon.

We will also upgrade the software to support print very few raft.

roller
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Re: UP MINI

Post by roller » Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:53 am

Hi two cycler, I would go an Up Plus if I could afford it (I'm a full time uni student). Unfortunately when I saved up enough for the Up Plus, the Mini came out so I bought the Mini and spent the rest on genuine filament knowing it to be a part of the secret sauce to the ease of Up printing. Now, after just a couple of weeks I have over a whole roll of rafts (720g) wasted on rafts. From that I have very few complete prints to show.

As for what to print on - I have acrylic, polycarb, kapton, borosilicate glass and blue tape options sitting here ready to print raftless just like I have done on one of my two repraps in the last 19months. I have two very nicely working repraps but wanted a low maintenance printer I could rely on when time is tights (repraps always seem to break a part or need calibration just when you need them in a hurry). Unfortunately it has worked out to be the opposite is true - On the first day of Mini ownership I had to print a shim on a reprap just so I could get bad pints out of the Mini (mine is particularly uneven at 1.3mm offset)

With software calibration I find I have the printer I expected - except the 20+ hours I spent cutting all my model into 110x110 sections and resizing all the thinwalls (less than 1mm that p software doesnt support) was wasted when I found the Mini couldn't print any of them. I have barely slept the last 9 days while I, recut all the parts to suit the "improved" software Mini that only does 105x105. My folio was handed in late because I banked on the reliability on the Mini to get me through.

The whole experience has been an expensive fiasco! I have now blown 133% of my original budget and all I have to show for it is a 250ish gram model and a 700+ grams box of waste rafts and another 300g and burned, melted blobs that are failed prints.

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