Fill

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scubamatt41
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Fill

Post by scubamatt41 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:57 am

I was wondering if anyone else has this problem with an UP mini. The fill doesn't stick to the wall on either side.
On the object, wall thickness 2mm, in the picture the settings where:
Fill=Full (near solid) Quality=Fine (speed)
Gasmix powercord cap.jpg
Gasmix powercord cap.jpg (26.63 KiB) Viewed 20279 times
The outer wall in the picture is o.5mm thick
Can anyone see or tell me if either I'm doing something wrong or it's the printer?

Thanks in advance, Matt
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roller
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Re: Fill

Post by roller » Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:30 am

Are you using 1.18 (ie the beta with platform leveling) because I am seeing real problems with layer adhesion generally with that version. All the prints it has made are weak as hell. When I use the much older Mac version (but presume older window version is similar) I get much stronger prints. I think 1.18 might need a bit more work.

eyUP
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Re: Fill

Post by eyUP » Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:37 am

My feeling is that it's related to updates to make support material easier to remove and to get 0.15mm layers...it would appear that the flowrate of ABS has been reduced, hence walls aren't quite touching + sticking together.
At the risk of repeating myself... Please add some advanced options to the software so people can tweak things so it works for them

Tiertime-Edward
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Re: Fill

Post by Tiertime-Edward » Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:59 am

This is not related with the software v1.18. The gap between the wall is directly related with the layer thickness and the wall thickness that be targeted.

When the layer thickness is 0.2mm, the printed line width will be 0.5mm. While the model has a wall with two lines, so the total line width will be 1mm. That's to say, the thinnest wall thinkness will be 1mm if the layer thickness is 0.2mm. (If the layer thickness is 0.4mm, then the line windth will be 0.6mm, so the total line width will be 1.2mm) This print may have some printing tolerance, that's may make the wall has a little bit of gap between two lines if the designed wall thickness is 1mm. So like your picture, not solid wall. But when you design the model, make the wall thinkness smaller than 1mm, and select 0.2mm layer thickness, there will be no gap between the lines. Reason is if your designed wall is thin than 1mm, the printed two lines will be overlapped, so will be no gap between.

Could I know what layer thinkness do you select?
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pp3dp.nl
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Re: Fill

Post by pp3dp.nl » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:56 am

Maybe in future software/ROM releases this issue will be fixed? Because I have printed models on the Up and then the same on a Dimension Uprint and that printer WILL fill all walls.

In theory the Z resolution should not affect wall thickness. The software could calculate a bigger print width if a wall requires it. So for instance a wall of 1 mm could be sliced with an outer printline of say 0.52 mm so they will overlap.

I hope this will get some attention in the future, not all models require it but I think it's the one missing thing of great Up software..

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scubamatt41
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Re: Fill

Post by scubamatt41 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:49 pm

Hi Edward,

The layer thickness is 0.2mm
Correct me if I'm wrong but from what I read in your post I understand that I have to take the wall thickness, which the UP mini can handle, in account when drawing an object? Under 1mm, maybe, but in this design the wall is 2mm.

@ roller
I'm not running 1.18. For me it works with just a M3 shim between the metal bracket and a Gekko on the left back corner. I stay away from 1.18 for now.
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Tiertime-Edward
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Re: Fill

Post by Tiertime-Edward » Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:09 pm

Hi, that was just an explanation of the relationship of layer thickness and wall thickness. So there are two ways to get rid of the gap between wall. If you need the wall thickness to be at 2mm, then please try to change the layer thickness, like 2.5mm. Please also try to rotate the model like 30 degrees or 45 degrees.

Do you mind to share the model with me? Then I can print it on my printer tomorrow.

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scubamatt41
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Re: Fill

Post by scubamatt41 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:17 pm

Okay thanks, I sent you the STL to your pm, as soon as I get home

update: Seems I can not attach files in pm?
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scubamatt41
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Re: Fill

Post by scubamatt41 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:00 pm

Hi Edward,

As there is, as you say, a relation between the layerthickness and the wallthickness :?: I paid more attention to calibration of the UP mini. Me being printer eager, I started printing "out of the box" :D
There was, untill yesterday, not that much wrong with the objects that came out the mini. Yesterday I noticed the non-adherance between the innerwall-fill-outerwall. A result is that when I dip the object in acetone the acetone gets into the object by means of the capillair action. Leaving the object soft and mushy.

After entering the calibration values I will print the mentioned object again.
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Tiertime-Edward
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Re: Fill

Post by Tiertime-Edward » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:24 pm

please send to edward at pp3dp dot com. thank ypu!

roller
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Re: Fill

Post by roller » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:32 pm

Hmmm ... maybe I have that same issue. I had presumed it was the version of software I use now as that's when the change occurred but is it something else then? I might try printing the object with the Mac software again, I just have then cheese gratering it puts my nozzle through - sends a shiver down my spine.

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JuliaDee
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Re: Fill

Post by JuliaDee » Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:49 am

I think that this explanation, or an expanded version of it, is worthy of being a "sticky" at the top of the forum - "How to Print Solid Walls". It is a important topic of interest to many users and has come up previously on the forum.

julia
Edward wrote:This is not related with the software v1.18. The gap between the wall is directly related with the layer thickness and the wall thickness that be targeted.

When the layer thickness is 0.2mm, the printed line width will be 0.5mm. While the model has a wall with two lines, so the total line width will be 1mm. That's to say, the thinnest wall thinkness will be 1mm if the layer thickness is 0.2mm. (If the layer thickness is 0.4mm, then the line windth will be 0.6mm, so the total line width will be 1.2mm) This print may have some printing tolerance, that's may make the wall has a little bit of gap between two lines if the designed wall thickness is 1mm. So like your picture, not solid wall. But when you design the model, make the wall thinkness smaller than 1mm, and select 0.2mm layer thickness, there will be no gap between the lines. Reason is if your designed wall is thin than 1mm, the printed two lines will be overlapped, so will be no gap between.

Could I know what layer thinkness do you select?

roller
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Re: Fill

Post by roller » Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:18 am

Yeah ... I would have been a little happier knowing more about how Up deals with walls before I purchased ... I son't know if it would have changed my purchase decision but it definitely would have improved my satisfaction once I started using the my Up.

Edward (or anyone else that fully understand how the Up software deals with this) could you expand a little on your explanation? I read it as saying if you want to avoid the gaps in walls you must do walls smaller than 1mm otherwise they may not bond but based on previous discussions I thought walls smaller than 1mm weren't supported and from my experience the software just ignores them and doesn't print them. Could you clarify that point because it would be really good to understand how to build optimum strength parts with the thinnest walls possible.

Also, are you able to tell us at what wall thickness the software will insert a fill. I presume it would change with different fill settings. I understand it might change depending on the angle of the wall too. Is there maybe an optimum angle to get fill to activate in the smaller walls?

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scubamatt41
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Re: Fill

Post by scubamatt41 » Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:15 am

It's printing the same object again with the cal.values and o.2mm resolution. From what I can see it's printing with a gap again. I think that a 3D printer should print solid or at least bond the layers regardless of the wall thickness desired / Z resolution. The one thing that remains me to do is print with a z resolution of 0.25mm. If, with that setting, there is still a gap, than to me the relation between wall and layer thickness is out the window.
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roller
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Re: Fill

Post by roller » Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:50 am

That is why I asked at what thickness the fill kicks in. On solution might be to produce two 1mm walls butted against each other.

To be fair to the UP I do know you will see the same behavior with almost all FDM printers. The problem being the fill algorithm requires some space in which to apply the fill and even with ones smart enough to vary the fill pattern to fit the space you still often get the case with two fine wall (like you have) that it is hard to fill that gap without producing overfill which will damage print quality.

The reprap fudge is usually to toggle double perimeter wall thickness to make them meet we don't have that option (yet) in the software but even in reprap it is still a bit hit and miss. It's just the nature of FDM 3D printing that you often need to find a compromise on finer designs to make them work.

Tiertime-Edward
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Re: Fill

Post by Tiertime-Edward » Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:57 am

Most of FDM printers have limitation in the wall thickness. You can try this model, it will be useful for you choose which layer thickness and what wall thickness to design and get rid of gap. http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:8859

Tiertime-Edward
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Re: Fill

Post by Tiertime-Edward » Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:20 am

pp3dp.nl wrote:Maybe in future software/ROM releases this issue will be fixed? Because I have printed models on the Up and then the same on a Dimension Uprint and that printer WILL fill all walls.

In theory the Z resolution should not affect wall thickness. The software could calculate a bigger print width if a wall requires it. So for instance a wall of 1 mm could be sliced with an outer printline of say 0.52 mm so they will overlap.

I hope this will get some attention in the future, not all models require it but I think it's the one missing thing of great Up software..
I was thinking to reply to @pp3dp.nl.

When you get a chance, please use the Dimension Uprint print other models. You will find the same problem in Uprint, like print this model, http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:8859. That is limitation for all FDM printer. For some models, when the UP don't have the gap in the wall, the Uprint will probably have the gap.

I think you may know how much the Uprint expensive than the UP! mini ;)

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scubamatt41
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Re: Fill

Post by scubamatt41 » Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:23 pm

Edward wrote:
pp3dp.nl wrote:Maybe in future software/ROM releases this issue will be fixed? Because I have printed models on the Up and then the same on a Dimension Uprint and that printer WILL fill all walls.

In theory the Z resolution should not affect wall thickness. The software could calculate a bigger print width if a wall requires it. So for instance a wall of 1 mm could be sliced with an outer printline of say 0.52 mm so they will overlap.

I hope this will get some attention in the future, not all models require it but I think it's the one missing thing of great Up software..
When you get a chance, please use the Dimension Uprint print other models. You will find the same problem in Uprint, like print this model, http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:8859.That is limitation for all FDM printer. For some models, when the UP don't have the gap in the wall, the Uprint will probably have the gap.

I think you may know how much the Uprint expensive than the UP! mini ;)
Either you are really funny to put a link like that in your post or you don't know were it links to. The reason you make money is because people actually buy 3d printers from you.
Always breath out on the way UP

eyUP
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Re: Fill

Post by eyUP » Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:38 pm

Think Edward meant to link to this:
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:8859
but got messed up with the board's URL formatting

Tiertime-Edward
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Re: Fill

Post by Tiertime-Edward » Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:53 pm

Hi scubamatt41,

I am sorry, I didn't meant that. I was thinking to link to http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:8859 and help with you, like @eyUP said. I am sorry but I didn't see it linked to another different website.

I applogize for the mistake. Thank you eyUP for explaining that for me.

Kind regards,
Edward

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