I printed weed-wacker line!

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rsilvers
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I printed weed-wacker line!

Post by rsilvers » Mon May 20, 2013 12:22 am

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http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001NM ... UTF8&psc=1

I dried it in the oven for 24 hours at 180F. I still saw small puffs of steam, so I would dry it twice.

The build plate is glass with a section of rip-stop BDU pants (65% Polyester, 35% cotton) spray-mounted to it.

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scubamatt41
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Re: I printed weed-wacker line!

Post by scubamatt41 » Mon May 20, 2013 10:17 am

That looks great,I wondered if weed wackercord could be used, now I know :)

Thanks for sharing, Cheers
Always breath out on the way UP

roller
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Re: I printed weed-wacker line!

Post by roller » Mon May 20, 2013 10:28 am

Triffid-Hunter, one of the gurus of reprap, was doing this back in December 2011 but gave it up due to the fact it,
emits hydrogen cyanide, carbon monoxide and other nasties
but his results were also decent. The Taulman 618 is formulated for printing and less nasty for you.

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Lawrence
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Re: I printed weed-wacker line!

Post by Lawrence » Mon May 20, 2013 10:57 am

Hi
It does sound a bit nasty. Burke, would need to keep your two little green cheek conures away from whipper snipper filament, and everyone should keep it away from any cats, dogs, and kids too.
But, my question is: "why would you want to 3D whipper-snipper filament when ABS filament does a perfectly good job when used to print?
Oh, another question for rsilvers: Have you tried to whipper snip using the Up! genuine filament?
And, just in case anyone is wondering what a cojure looks like:
pet-conure-faq1.jpg
pet-conure-faq1.jpg (12.63 KiB) Viewed 20618 times
They would great as a 3D print.
Regards
Lawrence
Last edited by Lawrence on Tue May 21, 2013 2:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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rsilvers
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Re: I printed weed-wacker line!

Post by rsilvers » Mon May 20, 2013 1:11 pm

roller wrote:Triffid-Hunter, one of the gurus of reprap, was doing this back in December 2011 but gave it up due to the fact it,
emits hydrogen cyanide, carbon monoxide and other nasties
but his results were also decent. The Taulman 618 is formulated for printing and less nasty for you.
The myth that will never die. Think of Close Encounters - when they just decided to take off their masks. It does not emit it at the 240C print temp. Teflon (the stuff frying pans are coating with) does also at extra-high temps.

Taulman is certainly the answer for professional use.

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rsilvers
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Re: I printed weed-wacker line!

Post by rsilvers » Mon May 20, 2013 1:15 pm

This test was able to detect 0.1 part per million. That is one part per 10 million or 1/100 of what OSHA allows an eight-hour exposure to.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Is-3D-P ... HCN-from-/

http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelin ... ition.html

Burke
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Re: I printed weed-wacker line!

Post by Burke » Mon May 20, 2013 8:23 pm

Yeah I definitely won't be printing with weeds hacker line.

I think I'll build an enclosure for my afinia when it gets here, to keep my little guys safe. I've seen a few on the site.

roller
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Re: I printed weed-wacker line!

Post by roller » Tue May 21, 2013 2:48 am

The myth that will never die.
The "Myth" surrounds proper 3D printer filament - it seems there is little to no dangerous off-gassing. Trimmer line is not part of this myth because, as you linked, does show noxious off-gassing. Trimmer line is a completely different and unknown mix of chemicals and may differ from manufacturer to manufacturer and even batch to batch because they are not concerned nor testing for safety when heated to 200C+ as this is not what it was designed for - it's composition is optimised for trimming weed. Hence, it cannot be trusted unless you pretest every batch.

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rsilvers
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Re: I printed weed-wacker line!

Post by rsilvers » Tue May 21, 2013 5:50 pm

roller wrote:
The myth that will never die.
The "Myth" surrounds proper 3D printer filament - it seems there is little to no dangerous off-gassing. Trimmer line is not part of this myth because, as you linked, does show noxious off-gassing. Trimmer line is a completely different and unknown mix of chemicals and may differ from manufacturer to manufacturer and even batch to batch because they are not concerned nor testing for safety when heated to 200C+ as this is not what it was designed for - it's composition is optimised for trimming weed. Hence, it cannot be trusted unless you pretest every batch.
It is not a question of a materiel emitting "some" gasses. It has to be a significant amount. OSHA defines limits for HCN, just as they do for automobile exhaust gasses that mechanics or toll-booth collectors are exposed to.

I think we should start by trying to find *any* type of Nylon which, when the quantity passed by a 3D printer and heated to 240C, exceeds OSHA safety limits for exposure.

And you can always take precautions, such as have a duct vent it and/or have an HCN monitor (or canary) in the room.

roller
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Re: I printed weed-wacker line!

Post by roller » Wed May 22, 2013 8:56 am

I disagree. It's a question as to whether you will ever be able to predict what gasses a filament will emit. Again, this type of line is not intended to be heated and additives may be used in manufacture based on that assumption which proves to be highly toxic when heated to 240C. HCN is only one of many possible emissions and usually MSDS are not available for these products and certainly are not that accurate/up to date. Further, significant release of HCN occurs at 300C from Nylon 6 and this is not far from our normal operating temp. You may also notice that significant ABS burns on the nozzle of an Up! yet this shouldn't occur at the temps we are using for ABS but it does because of prolonged exposure to high heat - this will be another source of potential noxious off gassing.

Also, the off gassing shown to already come from this weed whacker line is an issue for a long print in a small sealed room or even using a heating cupboard that might trap gasses and give the user a face full when opening.

My whole point is that there are inherent risks in using these products without fully understanding the chemical composition, completely understanding the conditions in effect and thoroughly testing those conditions. Advising people that it is safe to use without these things i.e. without fully quantifying the risks is just plain dangerous.

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rsilvers
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Re: I printed weed-wacker line!

Post by rsilvers » Wed May 22, 2013 5:05 pm

Everything is about limits. Radiation is dangerous, but we still fly:

http://www.hps.org/publicinformation/at ... ights.html

Anytime one cleans with bleach, ammonia, acetone - and smells it - you were just exposed. But not enough to be dangerous.

While the trimmer line tested only emitted 1/100 of the amount of gas considered dangerous by OSHA if one is exposed to 8 hours of it while having their head enclosed in a small sealed box with their printer, another brand of trimmer line would have to emit more than 100 times the gas volume, and then someone will opt to stick their head in a small enclosed box with their printer for 8 or more hours, in order to exceed the limit. First, no one sticks their head in a small enclosed box with their printer. And the filament extrude rate probably cannot create that much gas, no matter the composition.

It is best to duct it outdoors.

roller
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Re: I printed weed-wacker line!

Post by roller » Thu May 23, 2013 12:25 am

I am fully aware the poison is in the dose ... you seem to be unable to accept that the quality of such products will be inconsistent and you cannot pre-guess the dose... and people always lift the hood on my Up and stick their face in there and then complain of the choking gas... a few seconds later their ok ... with a concentrated inhalation of other unknown chemicals (again NOT JUST HCN) who knows how they will be.

Please enjoy heating and inhaling chemicals in the safety of your own home but do not advise others it is safe when there is no clear indication it is so.

eyUP
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Re: I printed weed-wacker line!

Post by eyUP » Thu May 23, 2013 8:14 am

Does anyone know if spaghetti is safe to extrude ? Obviously it doesn't normally get to 250 deg C when you boil it...
http://www.prsnlz.me/maker/the-worlds-f ... ted-pasta/

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rsilvers
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Re: I printed weed-wacker line!

Post by rsilvers » Thu May 23, 2013 11:44 pm

roller wrote:I am fully aware the poison is in the dose ... you seem to be unable to accept that the quality of such products will be inconsistent and you cannot pre-guess the dose..
I accept there will be a range of gases. One brand of line may emit 20% more gas than other, for example.

You are asking me to take something that is unlikely and prove every time that it won't happen. I don't expect one brand to be two orders of magnitude worse than another.

In order to exceed OSHA limits, there would have to be a line which fumes 9900% more than the one tested, and that is ONLY if you get eight or more hours of exposure, and ONLY if you confine your head to a small box inside the printer.

If you confine your head to a small box with a cup of bleach it is very bad, but that does not mean I won't use bleach, or bug spray, or occasionally spray some paint, etc.

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JuliaDee
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Re: I printed weed-wacker line!

Post by JuliaDee » Fri May 24, 2013 12:08 am

I think it's a cool experiment to have done, just to prove it can be done, and I give you props for having done it, but really, with the availability of the excellent Taulman products specially-designed for FDM, is there any reason to pursue it further?

julia

roller
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Re: I printed weed-wacker line!

Post by roller » Fri May 24, 2013 1:50 am

You are asking me to take something that is unlikely and prove every time that it won't happen. I don't expect one brand to be two orders of magnitude worse than another.
In this whole thing you are missing the point. My point is you should not make declarations like "safe" on open forums were there is a mix of skill levels, understanding and experience. My point is that there is a risk, the risks are unknown (I am not speaking specifically about HCN mostly but other/any potential off gassing) and anyone wanting to try random plastic X intended for a different use than filament printing should take significant precautions.

I have been around reprap a fair while, have participated in numerous discussions on IRC where there have been discussions of poisoning symptoms experienced from trying new filaments. Most will not kill you dead on the floor but may trigger someones asthma, may knock out your sense of smell which lead you to make a later chemical mistake, may burn your eyes (a common reported symptom) within unknown long term consequences or might just give you cancer.

Feel free to roll the dice for yourself but don't declare it "safe" unless you are certain with a reasonable amount of scientific rigor - the internet says its so does not count. If you want to be on the bleeding edge of filament discovery, good for you ... and thanks to all the others who tortured their olfactory centres and who knows what else for the rest of us. Today though, Julia sums it up perfectly - there's a great range of properly tested filament at a reasonable price so what is the point? Why bother with the risk?

Having hopefully made it clear what I am getting at ... I will say no more.

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rsilvers
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Re: I printed weed-wacker line!

Post by rsilvers » Fri May 24, 2013 6:34 am

JuliaDee wrote:I think it's a cool experiment to have done, just to prove it can be done, and I give you props for having done it, but really, with the availability of the excellent Taulman products specially-designed for FDM, is there any reason to pursue it further?

julia
T645 is more than 3x the cost.

I am about to print T645 now.

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rsilvers
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Re: I printed weed-wacker line!

Post by rsilvers » Fri May 24, 2013 6:39 am

Presumably for any grade of Nylon, there is a melting point for which it can be extruded (that is how they manufacture trimmer line) without off gassing HCN, and then a higher temperature where it will off gas a significant amount of HCN.

Why not just ensure that you are extruding at no higher a temp than the line was manufactured with simply by extruding at as low a temp as possible?

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