UP! Plus or CubeX Trio

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roller
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Re: UP! Plus or CubeX Trio

Post by roller » Sat May 18, 2013 4:45 am

Uses ReplicatorG (a modified version of that used by Makerbot)
Which is so old even Makerbot has replaced it! Any printer that puts such archaic defunct software in their specs/features should be regarded with suspicion... tell me it's not so! I am sure you could use something less painful like Slic3r/Pronter, Cura even Repetier etc without fuss - any mention of what firmware they are shipping it with?

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Lawrence
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Re: UP! Plus or CubeX Trio

Post by Lawrence » Sat May 18, 2013 6:14 am

Hi again

Re: The Mbot Cube II:
And $400 more than the Revolution XL, without the Revolution's ability to expand to dual-extruders.
by Julia
1.There isn't that much difference in the two prices once freight from USA to Oz is added,
2. I don't need 2 extruders. I have a Flashforge with 2 extruders and think of the second extruder as handy as a spare.
3. Mbot has local distributor - Bilby, who I am aware some have had negative experience with, but personally I have only had positive experiences with - so, assuming they will stock the Mbot Cube II and I order it through them, I will have Oz consumer protection as a safety net.
Which is so old even Makerbot has replaced it! Any printer that puts such archaic defunct software in their specs/features should be regarded with suspicion... tell me it's not so! I am sure you could use something less painful like Slic3r/Pronter, Cura even Repetier etc without fuss - any mention of what firmware they are shipping it with?
By Roller
I have been using ReplicatorG with my replicator clone and have had no negative issues with it. Yes, the generation of the build code is slow, but on the other hand ReplicatorG is easy to use and allows adjustments fot extruder and printbed temperatures, layers even below 0.1mm, and auto-generated the raft and support - even if they are harder to remove compared with my Up!
Also there is very little tweaking required - almost as little as my Up!
And, the printer does look good. Once I install sides, front door, top cover, and maybe a heated bed and warmed chamber, it should be very useful.
By the way, I also like the look and specs Revolution XL.
Regards
Lawrence
Last edited by Lawrence on Sat May 18, 2013 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

roller
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Re: UP! Plus or CubeX Trio

Post by roller » Sat May 18, 2013 8:45 am

I have been using ReplicatorG with my replicator clone and have had no negative issues with it. Yes, the generation of the build code is slow, but on the other hand ReplicatorG is easy to use and allows adjustments fot extruder and printbed temperatures, layers even below 0.1mm, and auto-generated the raft and support - even if they are harder to remove compared with my Up!
Essentially the majority of the reprap community dropped it about 2 years ago because there is much better software out there. You don't realise until you go back to using it what a dog it was compared to the newer options. No software in reprap does support removal anywhere near as well as the Up! - even paid tools like Netfabb.

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JuliaDee
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Re: UP! Plus or CubeX Trio

Post by JuliaDee » Sat May 18, 2013 12:29 pm

Lawrence wrote: Also there is very little tweaking required - almost as little as my Up!
And, the printer does look good. Once I install sides, front door, top cover, and maybe a heated bed and warmed chamber, it should be very useful.
Well, best of luck with it Lawrence, I hope it works great for you! Regarding slicing software, I have been playing with Creator a bit in anticipation of the arrival of my XL. I have no experience with other slicers (apart from Up's) but I can say that Creator is very fast and responsive and does a lot more than just slicing. It's not free, though.

http://www.simplify3d.com/creator/

Julia

roller
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Re: UP! Plus or CubeX Trio

Post by roller » Sat May 18, 2013 1:35 pm

I would love to know if Creator can produce reasonably easy to remove support. None of the open source alternative produce support which removes cleanly like an Up! (comparing ABS to ABS - PLA is quite a different matter)

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JuliaDee
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Re: UP! Plus or CubeX Trio

Post by JuliaDee » Sat May 18, 2013 1:52 pm

roller wrote:I would love to know if Creator can produce reasonably easy to remove support. None of the open source alternative produce support which removes cleanly like an Up! (comparing ABS to ABS - PLA is quite a different matter)
Here's a reply from the author to an email I sent regarding support generation in Creator:

"For support generation, the preview you see on screen is simply the way that we visually represent the support structures to the user. If you Prepare and Preview the model you will see how those pillars get combined to form your traditional breakaway support. What is so important about this implementation is that by displaying the support locations in a discrete manner, we can give the user complete control over the areas that have support and those that don't. You can use the "Add new support structures" button to add new areas of support or "Remove existing supports" to remove a pillar that is already displayed in the preview. It gives some incredible control over support material that isn't found in any other program. You can use the Support tab in your FFF Settings to customize the infill percentage and also several parameters that affect how easily the support breaks away from the part. We've gotten some really great results using this feature set, and I'm hoping we can continue to make this a differentiator for the Creator software."

julia

roller
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Re: UP! Plus or CubeX Trio

Post by roller » Sat May 18, 2013 2:33 pm

JuliaDee wrote:"For support generation, the preview you see on screen is simply the way that we visually represent the support structures to the user. If you Prepare and Preview the model you will see how those pillars get combined to form your traditional breakaway support. What is so important about this implementation is that by displaying the support locations in a discrete manner, we can give the user complete control over the areas that have support and those that don't. You can use the "Add new support structures" button to add new areas of support or "Remove existing supports" to remove a pillar that is already displayed in the preview. It gives some incredible control over support material that isn't found in any other program. You can use the Support tab in your FFF Settings to customize the infill percentage and also several parameters that affect how easily the support breaks away from the part. We've gotten some really great results using this feature set, and I'm hoping we can continue to make this a differentiator for the Creator software."
Hmmm ... no mention of any of the sorts of tricks that the Up software does then - that's a shame. I have tried all the approaches listed above and although they make ur life easier by controlling where the support is and how strong it is, they do little to make it peel away cleanly in the manner the Up does even if you use Up filament (yeah I tried and melted one of my hoteneds afters about 10 prints :( )

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JuliaDee
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Re: UP! Plus or CubeX Trio

Post by JuliaDee » Sat May 18, 2013 8:13 pm

roller wrote: Hmmm ... no mention of any of the sorts of tricks that the Up software does then - that's a shame. I have tried all the approaches listed above and although they make ur life easier by controlling where the support is and how strong it is, they do little to make it peel away cleanly in the manner the Up does even if you use Up filament (yeah I tried and melted one of my hoteneds afters about 10 prints :( )
I suspect that some of pp3dp's tricks for making support easy to remove involve controlling extruder temp on the fly at different points during the print - can G code / open-source printers typically do that? I think this is a reason that pp3dp won't display the extruder temp in real time - they don't want to reveal the algorithm.

julia

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wilsonj
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Re: UP! Plus or CubeX Trio

Post by wilsonj » Sat May 18, 2013 9:18 pm

JuliaDee wrote:
roller wrote: Hmmm ... no mention of any of the sorts of tricks that the Up software does then - that's a shame. I have tried all the approaches listed above and although they make ur life easier by controlling where the support is and how strong it is, they do little to make it peel away cleanly in the manner the Up does even if you use Up filament (yeah I tried and melted one of my hoteneds afters about 10 prints :( )
I suspect that some of pp3dp's tricks for making support easy to remove involve controlling extruder temp on the fly at different points during the print - can G code / open-source printers typically do that? I think this is a reason that pp3dp won't display the extruder temp in real time - they don't want to reveal the algorithm.

julia
Hi Julia,

I suspect they change the flow rate, as temperature might not be quick enough on small support parts. In my experiments low flow equates to low adhesion. On the other end of things I tried increasing flow and found I had the strongest ABS part I had ever printed. Also one of the ugliest mind you.
Regards
Jamie
3DPrinterGear.com.au

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rsilvers
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Re: UP! Plus or CubeX Trio

Post by rsilvers » Sat May 18, 2013 11:21 pm

JuliaDee wrote:Thanks, Jamie! I think 150mm/s is going to seem rather fast when the RXL arrives :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkJtLf6NpEk


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JuliaDee
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Re: UP! Plus or CubeX Trio

Post by JuliaDee » Sun May 19, 2013 1:50 am

rsilvers wrote:Pics from Maker Faire CA, by Drandolph.
Glad to see that they're there, thanks! WIsh I was there too but I just got back from China 2 days ago and not up to gallavanting across the country just now :(

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JuliaDee
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Re: UP! Plus or CubeX Trio

Post by JuliaDee » Sun May 19, 2013 1:53 am

rsilvers wrote:
JuliaDee wrote:Thanks, Jamie! I think 150mm/s is going to seem rather fast when the RXL arrives :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkJtLf6NpEk
OK, that's fast :) Love the design of this machine - it just feels 'right'.


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JuliaDee
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Re: UP! Plus or CubeX Trio

Post by JuliaDee » Sun May 19, 2013 2:08 am

Overheard in the background: "That's why you don't build these things out of wood" :)

Sounds like their booth is pretty jumpin'

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rsilvers
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Re: UP! Plus or CubeX Trio

Post by rsilvers » Sun May 19, 2013 2:31 am

Tell me about it. My Printrbot is so flexible that I have a massive made-in-USA drop-forged C-clamp to keep it from rocking, and a light-bulb changer pushing it down from the ceiling because it has already tipped over twice when running as it pulled filament. I epoxied an aluminum angle-iron to the Y-axis to keep it from flexing, and another owner asked me "Why did you do that? What problem does it solve." I was thinking "This guy must not own one if he has to ask that." I assume the flex is the reason why certain parts look bad if I run it past about 10-15mm/sec.

If the QU-BD ends up as good as I hope, then I can't see waisting my time on anything else cheaper. And it is not clear there is anything better below $3000. Or maybe even below $8,000.

Image

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Lawrence
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Re: UP! Plus or CubeX Trio

Post by Lawrence » Sun May 19, 2013 2:44 am

Hi rsilvers and Julia
Please! Please! Please! Stop showing us the Revolution RXL. I am starting to want one.
I don't think I can justify more than 3 printers ... well, not for now.
Regards
Lawrence

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JuliaDee
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Re: UP! Plus or CubeX Trio

Post by JuliaDee » Sun May 19, 2013 2:48 am

Lawrence wrote:Hi rsilvers and Julia
Please! Please! Please! Stop showing us the Revolution RXL. I am starting to want one.
I don't think I can justify more than 3 printers ... well, not for now.
Regards
Lawrence
Heh heh... I think I will have to stop after this one, too - no more room in the shop! Would still like to find a spot for a small lathe/mill, though...

roller
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Re: UP! Plus or CubeX Trio

Post by roller » Sun May 19, 2013 7:05 am

I suspect that some of pp3dp's tricks for making support easy to remove involve controlling extruder temp on the fly at different points during the print - can G code / open-source printers typically do that? I think this is a reason that pp3dp won't display the extruder temp in real time - they don't want to reveal the algorithm.
You can do everything in a reprap with gcode that an Up can do but I don't think it's heating - there is quite a delay between reducing the temp and an actual noticeable response/change in the filament partly because you have to sap a few degrees of energy from the nozzle and the heater block - that takes a little bit. I think they do a few of things:

- As Jamie suggested they limit the flow making weaker, thinner strands
- print the top layer of support as sparse as they can
- they change the layer heights, by not trowelling the next layer down close with the head it adheres less to the layer below - so essentially the first layer of real print above the support layer is lifted a little
- print the first layer of print a little faster (and maybe cooler too) so it doesnt sag between the support strands
- the first layer of real print is printed a little denser (closer together) to give good intralayer bonding and to compensate for the layer not being pushed flat into the layer below and spreading into each other a little.

Thinking now about your proposal Julia it seems the may lower the temp (yes I am flip flopping from what I said above) and this would explain an observation I have made about all my prints ... there is always one corner that sticks more than the rest ... this might be the "hot corner" where the first layer of real print has started and the head is still cooling down to a cooler first layer temp OR its the end of the first layer and the printer is starting to pre-emptively bring the head back up to full temp to start the second layer. I will have to watch a full print and look for whether it is the start or end and try these strategies on a reprap. Cooler would also again make the printed filament lay down rounder so it hase less surface area contact with the support layer below ... hmmm ... I wish it wasn't coming up to end of semester so I could go test these ideas out.

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rsilvers
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Re: UP! Plus or CubeX Trio

Post by rsilvers » Sun May 19, 2013 8:16 am

I asked the developer of Slic3r to reduce the temp on the last support layer to make it more peelable, and he said:
I thought that seemed like a good idea too, but it's probably not necessary. As far as I know, the Up! printer can also print removable support when the interface isn't a large flat layer. If you're printing a sphere with support, the interface will be on many different layers, and you'd have to cool down and warm up a lot of times! So I don't really think you'll see this feature in slic3r soon

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