UP! Plus or CubeX Trio

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hajime
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Re: UP! Plus or CubeX Trio

Post by hajime » Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:54 am

rsilvers wrote:I think the answer is an Up! with dual extruders and a larger build area - which does not exist yet but is destined to. Basically Up! and Cube both took the approach to make their machines easier to use for non tinkerers (and less configurable). That is fine and necessary to be usable by most people. But Cube went with media that costs 9x more, making it hard to recommend even if my company was buying the media.
I totally agree that such a non-existence UP! is the most ideal one. However, I need to buy a 3D printer now. The build volumn just fits my current needs. I expect that very soon I will need a larger build volumn. That is why I am considering the CubeX. Are the ABS and PLA from curify better than the ones for the UP! ?

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scubamatt41
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Re: UP! Plus or CubeX Trio

Post by scubamatt41 » Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:03 am

Hi hajime,

When build size is what you are looking for. Have you seen this printer?
If you search on easy3dmaker you will find approx. prices, posted in this community. ;)

http://www.3dfactories.com/index.php/en ... 3dprinters

I'm saving my money for this printer. But who knows delta micro puts something like this on the market :?:
Always breath out on the way UP

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Lawrence
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Re: UP! Plus or CubeX Trio

Post by Lawrence » Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:57 am

Hi
I have also been taking a peek at the printers offered by 3DFactories. For me the PROFI3DMAKER looks good. Enclosed built area, max 280c extruder, large print area. All it needs is a heated print area and it would be hard to beat.
Having said that, I have not found the Up!Plus build size to be too much of a limitation, so yes, offer us an Up!Mega, with adjustable temperature control, and I will be happy.
Regards
Lawrence

hajime
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Re: UP! Plus or CubeX Trio

Post by hajime » Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:15 pm

Print quality and reliability are the most important followed by build area.

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rsilvers
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Re: UP! Plus or CubeX Trio

Post by rsilvers » Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:39 am

I would not get a CubeX until it uses standard media - even if someone else were buying my media. It would be like buying a car that only used Toyota brand gas that costs $34 per gallon.

Maybe a Makerbot-2X.

I also need one right now, but am waiting for what I ordered to ship because it looks insanely better than anything in stock at the moment - but I can't recommend it because no one has one yet. It has dual extruders as an option, a 9.5x9x9 build area, is really fast, and is $999+shipping:

http://www.matter-replicator.com/forum/ ... p?f=8&t=10

hajime
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Re: UP! Plus or CubeX Trio

Post by hajime » Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:32 am

Somewhere on the net a CubeX Trio user warned people not to buy that printer due to very poor print quality. Is the print quality of the CubeX Trio really that bad? A dealer sent me a sample (for photos see the thread "How is the print quality?"). I asked the dealer:

1. Why there is a difference in color in regions A, B and C of the same model?
2. Why the edges at the bottom are not smooth?
3. Why there are gaps in one area?

His replies are:

1. Don't know.
2. Because the base must be made, so the bottom is not smooth
3. In order to make it quickly, we don't use the support

Are these reasonable answers? At the end, he wrote: "Cube printer is low price series, you can't hope this print make perfect part, if you want to make perfect part,you have to make more money for it."

I thought the CubeX Trio is one of the most expensive consumer 3D printers.



I am drawn between the Up! Plus and CubeX. I need a printer now. I have the Replicator 2 and it failed to extrude within 2 weeks. It has other problems. I am trying to get a refund. Even the dealer said that the Replicator 2X also has many problems. He said that both 2X and 2 use the same extruder that has design fault. I hesitate to buy the 2X. The UP! Plus fits my current need but in a few months, the build volumn may not be large enough for me.

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wackojacko
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Re: UP! Plus or CubeX Trio

Post by wackojacko » Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:42 am

If you are printing in ABS and need a larger build volume than the UP Plus then you really need an oven to build in due to the fast cooling / warping of parts.
Bruce
http://www.3DPrintingSystems.com

Need help with your printer, check out our Youtube channel.
https://www.youtube.com/user/3dprinting ... /playlists

markloane
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Re: UP! Plus or CubeX Trio

Post by markloane » Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:09 am

Okay, so as I have both machines the up! And the CubeX trio I think I can answer some of your concerns and questions.

Firstly, the UP! In my opinion it's the best printer on the market, and if it can do what you need it to do, given its print size that's the one to go for. It will do beautiful small accurate prints and hollow prints.

Software UP! - 8 Cubex - 5

Forget the specs. Let's look at the real world. Firstly, software, which is incredibly important. The UP! software will do platform calibration, accurate head levelling, clever and well-designed G code paths, flexibility with infill and support structures (very important and building complex parts) and it prints good platforms to make sure the print adheres to the base.

The CubeX software on the other hand, is appalling. No calibration tools, crashes frequently, has difficulty dealing with complex STL files, has no flexibility for infill or support structures and most importantly it's G code path design is very poor. It cannot cope with hollow builds, has accuracy problems with smaller parts and because the head keep starting same position you get blobs of plastic in the build or gaps. A new version was released today which I will have a look at, which I understand will fix sum of these problems.

Output UP! - 8 Cubex - 6

Now output, the up has a heated base and flexible fan/cooling, this means generally I can get the models to adhere to the base and build without cracks/gaps. CubeX on the other hand, uses a glass base , and glue which is not heated. This means that in combination with problems levelling the head and poorly designed G code when printing the base you get a lot of problems where the model will not adhere to the base. There is also been manufacturing problems where there was movement in the head nozzle. They have now sent me a new head which is fixed this problem. That said, with a lot of messing around I have been able to build some very large PLA objects with a very good print quality levels also managed to put some very nice multi-coloured objects together some of these prints however, can take 20 hours plus. CubeX seem to have a problem with getting stock of ABS material at the moment.

Did consider returning the CubeX, however, with some effort. I am getting some amazing prints that are huge compared with anything else out there and if they work on the software a lot of the problems I think can be sorted out. I'm also trying out some other G code building software such as http://www.simplify3d.com/ and http://kisslicer.com/ which I am hoping will give me control over the G code so I can change the infill, do hollow builds and manage the support structures, the Cubex can print RAW gcode, the UP! cannot do this BTW.

Support UP! - 7 Cubex - 6

The UP! support has been very good, I bought the printer from in UK company http://www.denford.co.uk who were very helpful and then this forum has been great. At first the CubeX support was terrible, very corporate and rather stupidly they have no forum where users are able discuss issues, after a lot of complaining and threatening to send it back. I finally got access to some very good support people within the company who are now being helpful.

Finally Some direct answers to questions re the CubeX
Why are the edges and the bottom of model is not smooth? - It's the software
Why are they gaps in one area? - The software has bad G code design meaning the head starts in the same place or leaves gaps.
JuliaDee - yes, the company is very corporate, the salespeople don't know what they're talking about and their first line support is appalling, the machine itself has potential if they sort out the software.
Cartridges, yes, they're expensive and there is no ABS material available at the moment, if the price doesn't drop you can open them and then refill them yourself.
Hajime - Buy the UP! unless you need the build size (you can slice the builds from the UP! and glue them later)

I am keeping both printers and with some effort I can get them to do what I need. The whole 3-D printing area for home users is quite immature at the moment, so don't expect it to be easy, you have to be a bit of a enthusiast.

Hope that's helpful

Mark

hajime
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Re: UP! Plus or CubeX Trio

Post by hajime » Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:14 am

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the excellent and useful comparison! We are lucky to have you in the forum.

I did try the software for the CubeX. It clashed "very" often. I asked the company. They have no comment.

Regarding to the ABS, I asked a local distributor. They have 1 roll of a few colors in stock. Most of them are PLA. The distributor said that it would take 1 month to import any ABS/PLA roll. The dealer said that for large build, PLA is recommended. The reason is that "Because the shrinking percentage of PLA is smaller than ABS,so PLA is good for big part." Is this true or is it because they cannot get the ABS at the moment?

Could you please try out the new version of the software and let us know if it has solved most of the problems?

You mentioned that "the Cubex can print RAW gcode, the UP! cannot do this BTW." What are the advantages of being able to print RAW gcode? I thought many people have already mentioned that the software for UP! is very good.

As for the ABS/PLA, is it recommended to use the ones sold by PP3DP or any ones made in China is ok?

Regarding to the build platform, should I buy the Platform Build rather than use the Callboard which I think came with the machine?

By UP!, do you mean the UP! Plus?

When I searched the net few days ago, I found a dealer selling some kind of "heat chamber" for the UP! Plus. Is it good to have?

I use SolidWorks and Autodesk Inventor. There should be no compatibility with the UP! Plus. Right?

How come the UP! Plus is relatively low cost but better than many other printers?

I sent some questions to Formlabs about there From 1. It has been a few days but there has been no reply. Since it won't be out until June and nobody has tried it, I guess it may not worth to wait.

Hajime

markloane
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Re: UP! Plus or CubeX Trio

Post by markloane » Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:26 am

Hajime

I have tried using the ABS from my UP! printer in the CubeX and I got heat problems and shrinkage. I haven't been able to get hold of any official CubeX ABS yet. I have had some very successful large prints using PLA.

I've done a couple of builds on the new software and there certainly seems to be an improvement. However, the head start location for each layer looks to be the same, instead of being randomised and there is still no flexibility with regards to infill or support structures. I will continue testing.

The advantages of printing raw G code is that I can use other software to create the builds and have some flexibility around support structures and infill, I can even control temperature etc.

The UP! cannot print raw G code you have to use their software to create build code which is encrypted, but that is less of a problem because the software that comes with the printer has a fair amount of flexibility does a relatively good job.

The ABS/PLA sold by PP3DP and the up printer isn't that expensive, so I'd recommend using it. The cartridges with the CubeX, however , are definitely overpriced and I'll be looking at ways of refilling them.

The platform that comes with the UP! Works just fine, most of the time.

Yes, I'm talking about the UP! Plus.

I'm not sure a heat chamber would be all that useful, perhaps consider it later.

I have built Raspberry Pi cases designed in Solidworks. You just need to export to STL files.

I think UP! Plus is now a number of generations old and is Chinese built, which is one of the reasons it's not that expensive.

Mark

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rsilvers
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Re: UP! Plus or CubeX Trio

Post by rsilvers » Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:50 pm

If the CubeX can print raw G-Code - why even complain about their software? Just use Repetier Host and Slic3r.

If you can refill the CubeX cartridges, then what is the big deal that they use proprietary cartridges?

There is the remaining problem of the CubeX not having a heated table.

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Lawrence
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Re: UP! Plus or CubeX Trio

Post by Lawrence » Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:59 pm

Hi Hajime
You can keep looking and comparing for ever. It seems that every other day a new 3D printer hits the market, and it gets more and more confusing.
Go ahead and buy the Up! Plus and enjoy this great little printer. I am sure that after you buy it something better will come along - hopefully an Up!Mega - but in the meantime you will be enjoying the Up!
I did a couple of prints today on my Makerbot Replicator clone that came out OK, but had an annoying lift problem. Then I did the same print using similar settings on the Up! and the result was excellent. The Gekko sheet ensured no lifting (I almost never get any lifting with it). And the print quality was noticeably better with the Up!
I took a look at the Cubex, but they lost me with the Cubex when I asked what the weight of filament is in each cartridge. Their reply: "We cannot quote the weight". Cannot, or will not? I'll bet that it works out very expensive per kilogram.
In summary, Unless you want big prints,or have some unusual specific requirements, you really can't go wrong with the Up!Plus.
Regards
Lawrence

hajime
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Re: UP! Plus or CubeX Trio

Post by hajime » Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:27 pm

Hi Lawrence, what is " Gekko sheet"?

I asked them about the weight of filament in each cartridge. They also told me that they could not quote the weight. If they cannot really quote their own product, I don't have a confident to buy their printer. Also, the distributor wrote: "Cube printer is low price series, you can't hope this print make perfect part, if you want to make perfect part,you have to make more money for it." It is the most expensive consumer printer as far as I know. His answer does not sound good!

A few questions:

If I buy the UP!Plus, what other accessories do you recommend?

Should I buy the ABS/PLA from the same company? How can I tell if they are real?

Any good, stronger replacement? I want to make some strong frames for robots. I used the Replicator 2 to make frames of 0.2-0.3 cm thick. However, they could be broken easily.

If I am going to color the models (ABS/PLA), is it better to buy the white color and then print/spray color on?

Can we all request pp3dp to make an UP!Mega?

markloane
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Re: UP! Plus or CubeX Trio

Post by markloane » Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:31 pm

The software I'm working with for G-code is not fully supporting the Cubex so I have to use there software.

I agree with Lawrence "Unless you want big prints, or have some unusual specific requirements, you really can't go wrong with the Up! Plus."

Everything you need comes with the UP! just get some extra colours.

Use ABS with the UP! for the best results, from the UP! supplier.

re colour experiment.

Afinia if you are in the US, Denford for the UK
Last edited by markloane on Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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JuliaDee
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Re: UP! Plus or CubeX Trio

Post by JuliaDee » Sat Apr 27, 2013 3:58 pm

hajime wrote:Hi Lawrence, what is " Gekko sheet"?

I asked them about the weight of filament in each cartridge. They also told me that they could not quote the weight. If they cannot really quote their own product, I don't have a confident to buy their printer. Also, the distributor wrote: "Cube printer is low price series, you can't hope this print make perfect part, if you want to make perfect part,you have to make more money for it." It is the most expensive consumer printer as far as I know. His answer does not sound good!

A few questions:

If I buy the UP!Plus, what other accessories do you recommend?

Should I buy the ABS/PLA from the same company? How can I tell if they are real?

Any good, stronger replacement? I want to make some strong frames for robots. I used the Replicator 2 to make frames of 0.2-0.3 cm thick. However, they could be broken easily.

If I am going to color the models (ABS/PLA), is it better to buy the white color and then print/spray color on?

Can we all request pp3dp to make an UP!Mega?
I recommend buying an Afinia (same as Up but better customer support) from http://www.octave.com. From Octave you should also buy their temperature-lowering switch for best results with 3rd-party ABS and with Nylon.

For starting out you should use the OEM filament and full temperature, that gives the best-looking and strongest parts. Later you can experiment with 3rd-party ABS (Octave's is good - Octave brand, not "3DD" brand) at reduced temperature for lower price and greater color selection.

For high-strength parts you will probably want to try Taulman nylon, either 618 or 645. For that you should buy a Garolite plate (also available from Octave) and use the temperature-lowering switch. Nylon prints can be a little bit "messy-looking" compared with ABS but they're really really strong. You can dye nylon any color you want using regular clothing dye (like RIT) - you can dye the filament before extruding or you can dye the finished parts.

Personally I do not recommend PLA on the Up/Afinia.

I've not tried the Gekko plate as I get good results with the standard perfboard, but I might give it a try sometime.

I just ordered a second Up/Afinia for higher throughput and as a backup.

Julia

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JuliaDee
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Re: UP! Plus or CubeX Trio

Post by JuliaDee » Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:00 pm

markloane wrote:Okay, so as I have both machines the up! And the CubeX trio I think I can answer some of your concerns and questions.
Great comparison post, Mark, thank you!

julia

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JuliaDee
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Re: UP! Plus or CubeX Trio

Post by JuliaDee » Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:02 pm

rsilvers wrote: I also need one right now, but am waiting for what I ordered to ship because it looks insanely better than anything in stock at the moment - but I can't recommend it because no one has one yet. It has dual extruders as an option, a 9.5x9x9 build area, is really fast, and is $999+shipping:

http://www.matter-replicator.com/forum/ ... p?f=8&t=10
That really does look like a nice machine. Please post your experiences with it here when you get it, thanks!

julia

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rsilvers
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Re: UP! Plus or CubeX Trio

Post by rsilvers » Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:11 pm

Sure. I will be doing lots of tests and reports on it.

As for the weight of a CubeX cartridge - I forget where it was posted, but I saw someone report the weight of a full and empty cartridge. I figured out the weight of the media, and then calculated the cost. It was about $260 per Kg - about 9x more than ABS on Amazon.

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JuliaDee
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Re: UP! Plus or CubeX Trio

Post by JuliaDee » Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:23 pm

JuliaDee wrote:
rsilvers wrote: I also need one right now, but am waiting for what I ordered to ship because it looks insanely better than anything in stock at the moment - but I can't recommend it because no one has one yet. It has dual extruders as an option, a 9.5x9x9 build area, is really fast, and is $999+shipping:

http://www.matter-replicator.com/forum/ ... p?f=8&t=10
That really does look like a nice machine. Please post your experiences with it here when you get it, thanks!

julia
Oh what the heck, I just ordered one:

Image

http://store.qu-bd.com/product.php?id_product=44. The machine looks well-engineered, well-built, and FAST, their website is very professional, they're based in the USA, and they answered my emails (articulately) on a Saturday. Sold.

Thank you rsilvers, for the tip. So many printers coming on the market it's easy to miss some...

Now where am I going to put it...

:)

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rsilvers
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Re: UP! Plus or CubeX Trio

Post by rsilvers » Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:11 am

Also look at the MakerGear M2. It looks very heavy duty and has a decent size build area.

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