Up Default Temps

Talk about anything.
Post Reply
roller
Posts: 1622
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:09 pm
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Up Default Temps

Post by roller » Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:18 pm

For a long time two temps have been kicked around on forum as being the default temp for ABS ... 270C and 260C. I don't think this was definitively sorted and I am working on a new temp mod that means I need to know. Has anyone ever resolved what the stock print temp is with any certainty? The PLA temp might be handy to know too.

mr6k
Posts: 327
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:47 am

Re: Up Default Temps

Post by mr6k » Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:27 pm

Hi Roller,

My Up Plus display in its original ABS configuration, a rising nozzle temp until it indicates just above 260and then it starts printing. The actual value when it starts varies between 261 and 263. I guess these small differences are just due to the polling sample times vs the main start time. Now I have not measured whether the temp is actually 260 ish, but I guess the manufacturer is indicating that is the implied temperature.

No idea about PLA as I never use it.

cheers

Peter

chang
Posts: 45
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2014 3:13 am

Re: Up Default Temps

Post by chang » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:02 am

My UP Plus it starts printing by 267 C nozzle temp.
Not sure if the display shows the real temp

stormychel
Posts: 241
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:13 am
Location: Belgium
Contact:

Re: Up Default Temps

Post by stormychel » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:10 am

ABS is at 260 (I think it only goes to 270 on withdraw/extrude), and PLA is at 210 (same story).

Even if these displayed temps don't exactly correspond to the real nozzle temperature, if I calculate a temp drop by them for a specific material, it's spot-on 99% of the time.

I print 220-230* ABS at -30 (-40 also works but bonding is better with -30), and 190-200° PLA at -10 for most of them and -20 for glowfill. When I print this PLA at the stock temperature (210), it produces nasty-to-remove rafts.

Will keep watching this thread in case someone comes up with more accurate temperatures, will be nice to know!
@stormychel

roller
Posts: 1622
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:09 pm
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: Up Default Temps

Post by roller » Sun Dec 07, 2014 5:12 am

Thanks but but perhaps I wasn't being clear when I said definitive. I have two years of observational anecdotal experience and understand what we "think" the temp is based upon when it starts printing but this is not definitive and in fact two years ago concensus was that it was 270C (I remember the conversations). That is not good enough for what I want to do. Before posting I checked with some of the dealers based upon their inside knowledge and revisited some of the old forum details but everything is a guess.

I am looking for some hard proof to the actual temp while prinitng. This would mean either:
- limited extrapolation through repeated testing/measuring of the temp or isolated resistance of the RTD during a print OR
- perhaps one of the guys who hacked the job protocol to edit the temp in software could comment if it is stated - I couldn't find anything definitive in re-reading the posts on the matter.

There is possibly a reason the temp is obfuscated once printing starts and it could be that the inital temp is higher or lower than anticipated. Normally I don't need to know because a relative temp adjustment is all that is needed for non OEM filament to be reliable but I need to know some start points for some other hotter filaments which are temp sensitve.

stormychel
Posts: 241
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:13 am
Location: Belgium
Contact:

Re: Up Default Temps

Post by stormychel » Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:48 am

Because this printer can air-print and not detect it like no other, what about removing the nozzle, and inserting a temperature probe there, connected to an Arduino which ten shows the temperature either via serial terminal on computer, or with it's own display? There's something about high-range ->300° C measuring here : http://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=39510.0

So if you have :

- one of those solutions from the link
- an Arduino (very cheap on eBay, I suggest you get a Leonardo for simplicity or an Uno (replaceable chip so once programmed the chip can be put inside a circuit of your own)

you can make a high-range temperature sensor to do just what you need.

Maybe modifiyng a nozzle to have this sensor fixed into it should also be possible, and have display that shows the exact temp all the time.
@stormychel

caesar
Posts: 64
Joined: Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:32 am
Location: Romania

Re: Up Default Temps

Post by caesar » Sun Dec 07, 2014 2:30 pm

roller, why not use the temperature function of a digital multimeter?
Most have K type temp sensors and are quite precise. Use kapton tape to tape the probe to the hotend.

If you don't mind 1-3 degrees difference then even using the cheap 10$ multimeters is ok.

I have measured it this way exactly to test my tempmod on the mini and it seems to swing between 262-265C (on the large side of the heat block) during print. Used the K probe from an Agilent multimeter so I expect the readings to be spot on.

mr6k
Posts: 327
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:47 am

Re: Up Default Temps

Post by mr6k » Sun Dec 07, 2014 5:37 pm

Roller,

The general consensus is that the UP Plus, and I guess Mini use a PT100 PTC for measuring the extruder temperature.
I believe the PT100 is a very precise device. Looking at a table of its Resistance vs Temperature it is certainly possible to measure the actual temperature to better than 1 degree C.
Assuming you have a decent multimeter, they normally are accurate to better than 0.5%, then you could try the following.

1) Make up a switch that can momentarily disconnect the PTC from the printer, I guess you already have the basis of this with your temp mods.
2) To calibrate the meter with a known ambient temperature, open the switch and measure the resistance of the PT100 at ambient, take any difference between meter reading and PT100 table value at ambient, this establishes meter and meter wiring resistance etc.

2) With the switch closed setup the printer, put the meter across the PTC set it to volts and allow to reach full printing temperature, while printing . Of course at this stage all you will see is the bias voltage of the PTC. Now open the switch, switch the meter to ohms and immediately note the reading. Subtract the ambient error reading and the value should then precisely show the instantaneous temperature from the PT100 table.

I guess as you switch out the PTC the software will complain, but by then you should at least have your measurement.

Alternatively if you can establish a relationship between the resistance of the PTC and the voltage across it, as the software does, then simply measuring this voltage without opening any switch will give you a constant monitor of the extruder temperature. ( Two DVMs could establish this with ease. Set one to volts across the PTC and the other to amps or milli/microamps through the resistor, then just apply ohms law. V/I=R)

cheers

Peter

roller
Posts: 1622
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:09 pm
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: Up Default Temps

Post by roller » Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:41 am

Thanks Peter ... I am electrically au fait and understand this ... the whole point of the question is to gather if someone already has this information. The reason I want to avoid doing it is a) it's a painful exercise, b) it's is fraught with experimental errors especially with the standard of my kit that I have on hand. With everything I work on I typically only need my multimeters to be in the ballpark and both have shown themselves to be not that accurate when I am talking sub 5ohms (yes they are cheap). I think it's probably just a battery charge level issue but if I can't trust my test gear I cannot trust the results - especially since the variance between say 260C and 270C is less than 4 ohms.

My sneaky alternative was going to be to replace the RTD entirely with a calibrated multiturn pot (I can do this on better gear somewhere else) and feed in the resistance that we think and both watch when the extruder feeds (no filament) and what the percentage reports. I thought this advantageous in that I can watch for any variance across the whole print ie if the software wants the extruder to get hotter mid print my fixed feedback temp will show under 100%. Using a pot I can count the turns to get it on to 100% again. But again I am trying to be lazy ... actually I am busy and finding it hard to find the time for such shenanigans.

stormychel
Posts: 241
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:13 am
Location: Belgium
Contact:

Re: Up Default Temps

Post by stormychel » Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:12 am

I think you should be happy with your current temp mod, test with your special filament until you get the desired drop, if not happy with it, make a temp mod that goes by 5 degrees, or even smaller steps. Perhaps a combo of your mod and a pot, or a second click wheel with 9 x 0.36 ohm resistors could be the solution to fine-tune the temperature for this. Your mod's form factor is very good and I wouldn't waste too much time on these printers, they are getting old, and some very exciting stuff is to be released in the coming months from various manufacturers...
@stormychel

roller
Posts: 1622
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:09 pm
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: Up Default Temps

Post by roller » Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:56 am

stormychel wrote:I think you should be happy with your current temp mod, test with your special filament until you get the desired drop, if not happy with it, make a temp mod that goes by 5 degrees, or even smaller steps. Perhaps a combo of your mod and a pot, or a second click wheel with 9 x 0.36 ohm resistors could be the solution to fine-tune the temperature for this. Your mod's form factor is very good and I wouldn't waste too much time on these printers, they are getting old, and some very exciting stuff is to be released in the coming months from various manufacturers...
You should always find the best temp by trial and error because even from roll to roll there may be variation in the same filament. This need is for a special request temp mod - I am perfectly happy with my pushwheel temp mod design and btw there is no point to 5C variations with ABS though it can be useful with some PLA which is particularly picky.

For some reason I didn't see the earlier posts of others ... not sure why. Caesar, I have a temp probe that is reliable but accuracy is impaired by the effectiveness of the thermal coupling. Further I need to know what the RTD thinks the temp is which means the probe need to be exactly in same position and coupled roughly as well. Possible but painful and fraught with errors.

Post Reply