PLA printing never works

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stormychel
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Re: PLA printing never works

Post by stormychel » Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:08 pm

GeoM528 wrote:My friend had success on 3D printing with 3D2print’s PLA filament on UP printer! If you encounter same problem again with other material, better contact your printer provider.
Yes they have good stuff, will probably buy my next spool of PLA there, but I was not sure as they specify 210-220 for extrude temp...

They also have ABS that extrudes at 260-285... comes really close to the OEM stuff.
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Carnivore
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Re: PLA printing never works

Post by Carnivore » Mon Nov 10, 2014 2:13 am

Do you think it may be because of this shitty third party PLA filament that I'm getting jams?

Print2the3D
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Re: PLA printing never works

Post by Print2the3D » Mon Nov 10, 2014 2:15 am

Carnivore wrote:Do you think it may be because of this shitty third party PLA filament that I'm getting jams?
Yes :) If you want a good, cheap reference PLA, get the orange one from 123inkt.nl , this works flawlessly with the Mini, when using fan mod and temp mod -10°

Carnivore
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Re: PLA printing never works

Post by Carnivore » Wed Nov 12, 2014 2:03 am

Anyway to use my shitty third party PLA? I got it from Amazon.

stormychel
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Re: PLA printing never works

Post by stormychel » Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:14 am

Carnivore wrote:Anyway to use my shitty third party PLA? I got it from Amazon.
Yes, build a RepRap Prusa i3 and use it with the shitty PLA :) At least that is what I am doing, printing a frame as we speak, and sourcing parts.
Don't know if it will take this bad spools though... very excited to find out!

Is there a reason it needs to be PLA? Food safety? It's very hard to clean with warm water without deforming... found out the hard way when trying to clean my shot-glass-test-tubes I made for Halloween... :s

I'm waiting for a spool of silver HIPS which should come in today. Seems to be food-safe as well, and SHOULD print like ABS...
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teamcarlisle
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Re: PLA printing never works

Post by teamcarlisle » Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:09 pm

Just thought I'd chime in. On Up software version 2.12 I've found the PLA setting works great for me. I have used it with both Octave PLA, and Sainsmart PLA. I print with the default PLA temps built in (Meaning I put my temp mods into bypass, basically returning my Up Plus to its stock configuration) I have the wind barrier fully open with PLA (And closed with ABS) Next I place a small desk fan infront of the Printer blowing onto the print to cool it off quicker and I get successful prints. I am using the Original windbarrier that came with my Up! Plus, which I think was the Windbarrier V10. (I've never made the time to print out any of the windbarrier upgrades) I think V13 is the newest version included in the Up Software 2.13 But if you want to try the V10 you can download it from afinia.com I dont know if it would make any difference, but might be worth a try.

On another note, reading through the discussion thread, I'm not sure if you are using the fan correctly on the heatsink. It need to be blowing onto the heatsink, not sucking air away from it. And the flap on the wind barrier is to allow some of the air to blow "down" off the heatsink onto the print to help it cool off faster when its open for very small ABS prints or PLA prints, and close the flap to reduce cooling on the print for larger ABS print.

The way your extruder is setup in those pics is quite different from mine though. Did you already mod it or are you on the Up Plus "2" (You only ever mention being on the Up Plus) If you are still on the Up Plus I would reccomend putting it all back to the original configuration and seeing if your mods are the cause of the failed printing.

If you actually have an Up Plus "2" though, I dont have experience with that printer. I would assume the blower would work in a similiar fashion though. (every other brand printer is similiar, fan blowing towards the heatsink and/or blowing down onto the actual print. Not the other direction)

stormychel
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Re: PLA printing never works

Post by stormychel » Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:40 pm

teamcarlisle wrote: On another note, reading through the discussion thread, I'm not sure if you are using the fan correctly on the heatsink. It need to be blowing onto the heatsink, not sucking air away from it. And the flap on the wind barrier is to allow some of the air to blow "down" off the heatsink onto the print to help it cool off faster when its open for very small ABS prints or PLA prints, and close the flap to reduce cooling on the print for larger ABS print.
Hi,

I went from totally unable to print a specific kind of PLA to 75% success rate just by reversing the stock fan, so it sucks air away from the heatsink. This is pretty logical because a) it stops warm air from the top of the case to be blown against the heat sink and b) blowing this even more heated air against the extruder housing. I think sucking hot air away is the way to go. This has one disadvantage, you loose the function of the latch, as it needs to be shut while printing like this, as we don't want hot air from the hotend being sucked upward, against the heat sink. So with this you loose the ability to blow air against the PLA while it's printing. I am aware of this but it doesn't really seem to make much difference on the print quality.

Then, as 75% is not enough, I decided to add 2 fans to cool the stepper motor. First I oriented them to suck air away, but this didn't make any noticable difference... which I still don't understand as it's the most logical thing to do. Then I reversed them, so they blow air onto the stepper. This has taken success rate with PLA to 99%. There are still some spools that have issues, but I think they are of bad quality, as the first spool Black PLA from this supplier printed flawlessly, and the second spool I received a few weeks later is pure horror. Well the first 100 grams went ok, then it started to jam. I still don't have a solution for these spools, but as I have success with all others I don't really bother with them.

I print PLA mostly with a 10 degree drop (spools from 123inkt.nl), with closed bottom door, and opened top door. I get good prints, in an ambient temperature of around 18-20° C.
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roller
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Re: PLA printing never works

Post by roller » Wed Nov 12, 2014 3:41 pm

I've now tried your mod idea stormychel - does't work for me. Less than 20mins into a print it jams and strips. Like I said earlier I suspect you are lucky with how hot your stepper/extruder runs and the slight improvements tiy've made get you over the line. Your mod may work for some but not others (me included). :(

stormychel
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Re: PLA printing never works

Post by stormychel » Wed Nov 12, 2014 6:56 pm

roller wrote:I've now tried your mod idea stormychel - does't work for me. Less than 20mins into a print it jams and strips. Like I said earlier I suspect you are lucky with how hot your stepper/extruder runs and the slight improvements tiy've made get you over the line. Your mod may work for some but not others (me included). :(
Damn... wish it would work for everyone... :(
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stormychel
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Re: PLA printing never works

Post by stormychel » Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:15 pm

I bought my printer in september 2014. I understand that you are an early adopter, Roller, is that 2012?

As I said before, not all spools work, but there's enough that work flawlessly to be sure that the mod does have effect on my printer...

Would love to know what the differences are between years.
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Carnivore
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Re: PLA printing never works

Post by Carnivore » Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:38 pm

teamcarlisle wrote: Did you already mod it or are you on the Up Plus "2"
I'm using a UP Mini

teamcarlisle
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Re: PLA printing never works

Post by teamcarlisle » Wed Nov 12, 2014 8:24 pm

Carnivore wrote:
teamcarlisle wrote: Did you already mod it or are you on the Up Plus "2"
I'm using a UP Mini
Sorry, somehow I missed the fact that you weren't the original poster in this thread, lol

roller
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Re: PLA printing never works

Post by roller » Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:09 am

I had a Mini but switched to a Plus .. the Mini extruder ran ever hotter than my Plus. The most obvious way for them to dial back the heat is to just dial back the current to the stepper - this loses some torque but reduces less heat especially if they were overdriving on earlier designs. There is a trade off between having enough torque to not lose steps to not making too much heat. You can also modify the driving signal to be more efficient and less heat generating. Further, there are other factor including how the tolerances of the extruder gear assembly. PLA jams becasue of multiple factors ...
1) the amount of heat generated from the stepper which is causing it to soften - realted to current as stated above but in turn also related to the stepper model/winding/torque and current rating
2) the efficiency the stepper transfers that heater through the drive gear (conduction is a far more effective heat path than that which is radiated or convected)
3) heat bleed form other sources ... even if the path is less efficient if there is a strong updraft path from the hotend to heat up the extrusion chamber obviously that will be a factor4
4) the feed path design which allows space for the PLA to feed out of direction - less space means the extruder relies less on the filament rigidity and can survive with soften filament in the path before sufficient buckling can occur causing a jam
5) obviously the softening point of the of PLA
6) the lack of a deep bite by the tiny Up extruder gear togehter with the general brittleness and hardness of PLA (and specific brittlenss/hardness of the filament ou are using) means any minor misfeed tend to rip chunks out of PLA rather than miss steps. In turn any jam/misfeed event becomes less survivable depending on specific material properties. You migh tnotice you can have a jam in ABS and eventually drive through it but with PLA any jam quickly becomes fatal.
7) Print bed mateial, print bed levelness and start height - as per 6 some materials are less forgiving. Fro example glass is less forgiving than perfboard in that if your nozzle is too low there is nowhere for excess pressure to escape and backpressure will cause missed steps ... and eventually a jam. On the other hand glass is flatter and less likely to jam or go off level than a perfboard.
8) Per 6 and 7 - the actually strain caused by the upstream feedpath and roll friction

So there are lots of factors to a PLA jam and there are lots of little design modifications to improve the path but mostly likely just a current setting issue or stepper part variation are the biggest factors. So some people get a good batch of steppers, some worse ... some have the torque dialed up too high and others don't. We do know the manufacturing quality checks aren't brilliant because of the issues that arise with how well auto levelling is dialled in on the Plus 2s, or lose pulleys on all models or even the lack of proper greasing on some Mini's. So there might be tweaks, updates or just luck of the draw factors.

Carnivore
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Re: PLA printing never works

Post by Carnivore » Thu Nov 13, 2014 2:12 am

Alright well is there anyway to fix my heat issue with fans? I'm not sure how my setup isn't doing the trick. What if I added more fans?

stormychel
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Re: PLA printing never works

Post by stormychel » Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:46 am

So all these random factors some printers work well, others don't make me not want to buy an UP! anymore for my next printer... As a matter of fact, I don't know if FDM will eventually be the way to go for consumer 3d-printing... SLS looks very promising and is becoming more and more affordable. Also, the HP stuff looks promising, although I don't like that company so we'll see... For me it's a matter of getting my Prusa made, and look what the problems are there, and keep the UP! to print parts for other printers, as I am very pleased with its accuracy. I'm glad PLA works for me because otherwise the printer would have been a goner... after modding the heat bed with a 80°c switch, warping had decreased but on some parts what I get now is that the perfboard gets twisted by the ABS so badly that after some large prints it is jammed and I almost can't get it out, and the part is still a little warped. HORRIBLE printer...

Carnivore : if my fan mod does not work, your option is replacing your stepper with a NEMA-17, this will get less hot because it will be underpowered. One of our fellow UP-victims has done this with success : http://www.pp3dp.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... +17#p41939

Also, do you need PLA for a specific reason? Otherwise it might be simpler to mod the heat bed with a 80° or 90° switch (I suggest you go with the 90°), and print in ABS.

Still waiting for the HIPS to arrive on this end...
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roller
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Re: PLA printing never works

Post by roller » Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:52 pm

Most of these random factors apply to every printer especially those that use a direct drive system extruder system (I'm looking at you makerbot). Many printers use a NEMA 17 motor though which means it has loads of torque to spare and you simply undercurrent the stepper so it runs really cool. To be fair to the Up it really has been primarily targeted as an ABS printer and the PLA they design it for is their own fancy stuff with high tolerance and higher glass point. I am familiar with the range of probelms mostly from working with printers other than an Up.

Carnivore: there are a numbe of solutions to the PLA problems that do not efforts as radical as stormychels mod or the NEMA 17 swap. It's jsut the new kids always go for something radical ;)

I recommend looking at looking at Drews airpump mod. It's cheap (I got my pump for under $20 new from eBay), it works consistenly and it doesn't require a lot of modding or anything warranty destroying. If you add one of the sprung filament pressure mods this solves a lot of over/undersize filament issues too. Drew invented some of these too... check back through his posts for details on both. http://www.pp3dp.com/forum/memberlist.p ... file&u=390

Also Carnivore, did we not have this same discussion almost a year ago?

stormychel
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Re: PLA printing never works

Post by stormychel » Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:57 pm

Radical? Me? :) Nope the NEMA-17 mod is radical, mine is just a few extra fans.

If PP3DP made their PLA in a few more (and more appealing) colors, I'd be happy with their spools, the price is ok too. Would give the printer a much better image too... Already know a few people who were interested in buying the same printer as mee, after seeing it in action. Until I told them about the compatibility issues... Until now, none of them has bought an UP! ...
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roller
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Re: PLA printing never works

Post by roller » Thu Nov 13, 2014 1:10 pm

stormychel wrote:Radical? Me? :) Nope the NEMA-17 mod is radical, mine is just a few extra fans.

If PP3DP made their PLA in a few more (and more appealing) colors, I'd be happy with their spools, the price is ok too. Would give the printer a much better image too... Already know a few people who were interested in buying the same printer as mee, after seeing it in action. Until I told them about the compatibility issues... Until now, none of them has bought an UP! ...
Well that's a shame because I don;t think you appreciate these issues affect jsut about all FDM printers under $5000 to some degree. They all have simialr trade offs ... sheesh, yu should look at some of the mods people put their $20K Stratasys through to get rid of simialr problems. I mod printers all the time ... I am a technology consultant professionally and have to give clients the best advice on ROI ... the Up is usually my number one recommendation and cleints who get one as a second printer love how much better it works. It's not perfect but all FDM printing is a bit of a pain - it jsut depends what kind of pain you want to deal with.

PP3DPs printers are not designed to play nice with non OEM filament out of the box - that's their business stratgy and if you don't like it but love the printers features (removable support) you have to mod. Colorfabb PLA works well without any need to go through all this cooling fiasco. The colour range is still not great but they are less ugly than the OEM stuff. Also, other PLAs will work without a mod - just the good ones. Most of the market is full of the cheap crap PLA that softens at about 40C and is crazy brittle.

Carnivore
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Re: PLA printing never works

Post by Carnivore » Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:54 pm

roller wrote: Also Carnivore, did we not have this same discussion almost a year ago?
We sort of had it but I only had the UP Plus 2 and was only printing ABS. I recently got 2x UP minis for dirt cheap and want to dab into PLA. I'm perfectly fine with using ABS on the mini (with a platform heater mod) but I've never done PLA and would like to try it.

Carnivore
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Re: PLA printing never works

Post by Carnivore » Thu Nov 13, 2014 6:03 pm

stormychel wrote: Otherwise it might be simpler to mod the heat bed with a 80° or 90° switch (I suggest you go with the 90°), and print in ABS.
Where on eBay can I buy this temp module? From my understanding, the mini comes with a lower temp chip.

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