Moving up in the world.

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Chris botha
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Moving up in the world.

Post by Chris botha » Sun Jun 22, 2014 1:28 am

Hey Folks,

I am looking to dump my UP and move onto something with a bigger build envelope.

I would like to avoid all the multitude of issues the UP has when i buy again, is their any particular printer you folks can suggest?

(I had though the new MaketBot would be too expensive, but once you add up the amount of aftermarket work that needs to be done to an UP to get it to work reliably and repeatably they average out at the same price?)

regards
CB

mb20music
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Re: Moving up in the world.

Post by mb20music » Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:56 am

I would consider the Makergear M2

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DrewPetitclerc
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Re: Moving up in the world.

Post by DrewPetitclerc » Sun Jun 22, 2014 7:44 am

I recently had a chance to work with a Replicator 2X (dual extruder) and was very not impressed with the builds.

The support is not well considered and difficult to remove, it is so well stuck to the part that you need a lot surface correcting to remove.
The dual extrusion mechanics are not designed well, you will always have pollution from one nozzle into your part making color mixing blemishes.
The build plate was non-removable so scraping the part of is difficult and always screws up the tram to the nozzle so you have to run a check/adjustment every print. :oops:

I've had great opportunities to see close up in action almost all the offerings out there at events like "Maker Faire" and have had conversations with the owner/designers, most have had no real world experience in designing machines that need to accurately and repeatably perform for millions of cycles between failures/maintenance as I have in my 30+ years in the hard drive manufacturing industry, so they make a lot of common mistakes that we see grad students make in their first years in the business and a lot of those are due to cost constraints too. :geek:

The idea that a larger build area is going to make things easier/better is a common misconception, the inherent issues with mechanical adjustments, system speeds, material performance, material shrink properties will always be an issue that will not be easily solved by the casual user and is not considered by the designers of the software. :cry:

All in all I will stay with my "UP Plus Pro" that out performs every sub $5,000.00 FDM on the market, the quality of components that are used in it's construction are closely related to the quality of the components we use in our tooling and this is what first caught my eye, yes the "UP Plus" had a few issues in its design but they were easily corrected (hence my "Pro" version) and once done I have a machine that is reliable, accurate enough for the jobs at hand and able to adjust to changing material types with relative ease. :D

Through understanding of what the machine is really capable of comes the wisdom of how it can be used as a creative tool. :ugeek:

Regards
Drew
Drew Petitclerc
Petitclerc Designs
Owner/Senior Principal Designer, prototype, tooling and test equipment design and 3D printing
http://flash-graphics.deviantart.com/
http://www.thingiverse.com/DrewPetitclerc

Chris botha
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Re: Moving up in the world.

Post by Chris botha » Sun Jun 22, 2014 9:18 am

I hear that but no amount of pretty posturing will ever fit the kind of stuff I want to print in the tiny footprint this unit offers.. it suffers all the same problems the bigger ones do without the advantage of size, and its expensive for its size..

I seriously doubt I could recover even half of the money it cost, and i got it cheap.. hell they giving away the Mini for free with it now..

I have spoken with the manufacturer of my CNC about testing and extruder replacement for the spindle but he has no interest unless I am willing to make the slicer output work with Mach3.. soooo... that idea bottomed out.

I am VERRY seriously looking at two B9 printers for work and I think if I'm buying 2 I can wangle a third at a much better price for home.. just not sure the polymer print material is any good to me, too brittle and again work envelope is terrible.. but 25 micron build for under 4K sounds nice.. :)

Chris botha
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Re: Moving up in the world.

Post by Chris botha » Sun Jun 22, 2014 9:36 am

mb20music wrote:I would consider the Makergear M2
wow the makergear looks good.. 0.1 XY and 0.05 Z?!

ming
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Re: Moving up in the world.

Post by ming » Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:35 pm

is SLA in the realm of consideration ? or strictly FDM
Dream@night / Holdit@sameday

Carnivore
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Re: Moving up in the world.

Post by Carnivore » Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:14 pm

Having a larger printer doesn't mean it'll give you nicer larger prints. It's better to use smaller printers with small prints and then glue them together.

Having something smaller is better than having something bigger. That's why girls love mah small penis.

Chris botha
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Re: Moving up in the world.

Post by Chris botha » Fri Jun 27, 2014 10:54 pm

ming wrote:is SLA in the realm of consideration ? or strictly FDM
The B9 DLP looks to be the go for me now. the HD version will be just under 4K and has directly castable resin so i can make the jump from resin to metal..

(this link to the regular machine, not teh HD, but it showcases what I need them for in work environment)

http://golota.kiev.ua/3d_printing_b9creator.html

these images from the HD version, no supports and the lattice is 100um, that a human hair in the front of the image for comparison.
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and of course build size depends on projector focus so as big or as small as you want , depending on resolution.. which conversely means that when 4K projectors comew out, you simply flip your new projector into it and your build envelop just increased X4 or your resolution just increased X4

no reason not to love it!
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JuliaDee
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Re: Moving up in the world.

Post by JuliaDee » Sat Jun 28, 2014 1:32 am

I agree with Drew's comments. Anything that's based on the currently available open-source slicers is not going to generate easily-removable support. The only options there AFAIK are the Up and the Zortrax M200. I haven't tried Simplify 3D Creator; maybe it's better than Slic3r etc. The Fusion Design F306 http://www.fusion3design.com/products-s ... /f306gen1/ is based on the CoreXY mechanics, has a 12 x 12 x 12" build volume, and looks to be extremely well-designed, but it does not have its own slicer and it's a tiny company that could be gone at any time.

Or you could just wait for pp3dp to release a larger machine...

Chris botha
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Re: Moving up in the world.

Post by Chris botha » Sat Jun 28, 2014 3:47 am

hmmmmm.. im starting to think fdm is limelight.. im definitely leaning toward dlp. grow sizes are just small right now.. but 4k and bigger projectors will solve that soon im sure.

m_bergman
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Re: Moving up in the world.

Post by m_bergman » Sat Jun 28, 2014 1:24 pm

If you're doing jewelry, the B9 is currently the best option. Its prints are better than the Form1, and it has a resin that burns out cleanly for investment casting. However the build size is pathetic at best resolution, and the prints are really slow.
Form1 has a similar build envelope to the Up, but frankly. based on my experience I wouldn't recommend it to anyone just now. Still too unreliable and unrefined, unfortunately. Also, with any of the resin machines, don't discount the sheer amount of extra work in cleaning up the parts after printing: remove from build plate (wearing rubber gloves), agitate in IPA for 2 minutes, soak in IPA for 10 minutes, squirt IPA all over part, soak in clean IPA for 5 mins, leave to harden for half an hour or so, remove supports (heaps of the damn things...), leave in sunlight for a day to harden. Then it's ready for final cleanup, at which point you'll probably break something off, because the resin is jolly fragile. Also the print time at 0.1mm layers is approx twice that of the UP. At 0.05mm, it's 4x slower...
It's not something you just launch into because you want a quick part - you have to plan ahead for it. A pity, because a nice print is very nice, but the UPs get far more use than the Form1 in my workshop.

roller
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Re: Moving up in the world.

Post by roller » Sat Jun 28, 2014 2:07 pm

Hey Chris, FDM printers are not really designed for the kind of intricate work you do ... I think I mentioned this earlier. They are the best cheap option at present though for mechanical parts. Cured resin solutions (B9, Form 1 as previously suggested) are far superior for the level of detail I think you want. There is a lot of too and fro opinions between Form 1 and B9 declaring one better than the other. Overall it seems a fairly close match ... except B9 is open source and in no way seems to suffer for it. This means you are not at the whim of the Formlabs team with upgrades (though you may be at the whim of the open source community).

Makerbots have always produced inferior print quality. They are designs that need a lot of work and tuning just like the open source designs they are based upon. I am sick to death of being called in to assist getting them decent. Uni bought 5 despite my recommendations and now all I hear is whining about the print quality though it's done wonders for the amount of print work I'm getting.

The Makergear is an excellent printer BUT no removable support as stated because it is tied to open source (FDM open source is in an inferior technological position relative to resin curing systems) and that just makes it impractical for complicated prints with overhangs etc. I love Makergear kit - it is really well refined and the extruders are still my favourite (I still dream of one on the Up)

My next printer will probably be a Zortrax M200. Though I make architecture models for myself and half my clients I also make an awful lot of mechanical models (at the moment have a stream of orders for hexapod parts) and I really don't need all the detail, expense and hassle (cleanup) that comes with resin .. but that's a horses for courses thing. The M200 offers some fine layer heights in the future but I've been down this road before with some very well tuned and stable printer designs and I know it generally is not worth all the hassle. I love 0.2mm layer heights because it reliable on all my printers because the precision required is will within the range of the printers mechanics and is rarely affected by temp variations and thermal expansion sufficiently to need recalibration ... 0.05mm layer heights are another story (of mostly woe and suffering) so I'd leave FDM well alone for these fine resolutions. It is not FDMs strength.

Chris - if you want to get rid of that Up let me know :)

Chris botha
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Re: Moving up in the world.

Post by Chris botha » Sun Jun 29, 2014 6:31 am

no worries dude, I have a someone already in line for it (higher than my buying price too .. im a good salesman ;))

I had a play with a ring last night.. was quite surprised actually..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQN6RCyjg2E

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