A few issues

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Chris botha
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A few issues

Post by Chris botha » Sat May 03, 2014 9:14 pm

Het folks, a new up user with a few issues with the printers, some mechanical, some might be my expectations...

I bought this as a toy for my kid to get him off my CNC, http://digital-jeweller.blogspot.com.au ... eller.html and i figured "autoleveling, auto nozzle auto everything would be the answer for the kid..

So far.. not so good.. issues in a row.

1. the nozzle adjustment is way off between model prints, in one the first pass will curl off as its barely touching, in another the the first pass slams the table so hard you can see it wobbling as the head drags over it. YES, i have made sure there is nothing in the nozzle causing bad reads etc. Manual adjustment is the only way I can ensure decent start now.

2. Models are particualry bad prints.. dont get me wrong, I wasnt expecting buttery smooth, but at least recognizable would be nice. I have printed the same model as

FAST: 0.15 rest on default
Normal 0.2 rest on default
FINE 0.15 rest on default
Fine 0.15 rest on default and rotate model 45 degrees to see if it helps.

images below of last 2.. they were the most recognizable..

the spoon was a complete waste of time, it has huge wobbles in it.. the supports were kind of sagging away under it.. pity.. my son drew that himself and was really looking forward to seeing it..

All the models are shocking bad, with same faces unrecognizably so.. in all cases the support material was really difficult to get off too.

The only faces that are "usable" are the one ones that face UP.. essentially meaning this unit is only good for 2D prints?

3. Are we able to turn off the unit BEEPS at all, I have been in my lounge room at 4AM trying to get this thing working before the kids wake up, and my wife is going to kill me if it beeps another time...

adding stl in case it help? (scratch that cannot add stl , says extension not allowed?!? for a product that only uses STL's should the forum not allow STL files to upload? What format can I use please?


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Chris botha
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Joined: Sat May 03, 2014 7:30 am

Re: A few issues

Post by Chris botha » Sun May 04, 2014 3:51 am

created an account on thingiverse to upload file.

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:319868

Chris botha
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat May 03, 2014 7:30 am

Re: A few issues

Post by Chris botha » Sun May 04, 2014 5:21 am

a few more tries. this time testing a theory.. more cooling time between layers, by spreading the work over three at once. improvement was significant, which leads me to believe this WINBO filament I got with the unit melts at a far lower melting point than the printer head?

The seller say it is apparently sold as compatible with this unit.. I hazard a guess thats a bit of a fib but the ABS seller?

the sides are bad.. the bottom is horrendous.. only the top has a good finish. My next test is to not let the software generate supports and draw them myself? Maybe I can save the bottom..



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DrewPetitclerc
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Re: A few issues

Post by DrewPetitclerc » Sun May 04, 2014 6:54 am

Looks like you were using PLA at ABS temp, more info would make it easier to help you.
Material, material software settings, observed starting temp of extruder, etc.

On the subject of "Auto Leveling" and "Auto Z height setting", I have one of the original UPs with a main board upgrade, I have made several part upgrades that greatly increase the efficiency and accuracy of the builds and I'm still amazed when "Improved" designs by obvious novice mechanical designers (Afinia and Delta Micro) show up on the market and in general fail (see posts on this forum).
You need to not rely on these "Auto" systems and instead perform the system setups on your own, but in order for the system to work at its best it needs to be rigid between the nozzle and the build plate so I would recommend a few machine mechanical upgrades (see my other posts).

In general though I would place my UP printers in a head to head with any others in the FDM class, I have 2 at home and 4 at work, and use them for everything from prototype robotic tooling parts for assembly of computer hard drives in clean-room factories, to phone covers and toys (check out my stuff on Thingiverse), I've built with every material available on the market today (I have more than 65 spools at home) and almost never have a failure that I cannot attribute to an error on my part.

Search these forums for all the answers to your questions and I recommend spending time skimming all the posts to get a better understanding of what your printer is capable of and what it takes to have great success, once you've done this it only takes a couple of minutes a day to keep tabs on any updates.

Regards
Drew
Drew Petitclerc
Petitclerc Designs
Owner/Senior Principal Designer, prototype, tooling and test equipment design and 3D printing
http://flash-graphics.deviantart.com/
http://www.thingiverse.com/DrewPetitclerc

Chris botha
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat May 03, 2014 7:30 am

Re: A few issues

Post by Chris botha » Sun May 04, 2014 9:53 am

Hi Drew,

No, its ABS and the roll is setup as ABS. Its from Winbo and its printing at 265 or something like that.. a few threads about the web say 245 is the temp for this filament.. by cooling the workpiece as above more the surface improves.. still not great but better.

flat stuff is easy, and comes out great though.. my kids been Trekking it up big time...

Now to find out about a temp mod.. I have 12 rolls of filament not meant for this unit...

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mb20music
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Re: A few issues

Post by mb20music » Sun May 04, 2014 12:41 pm

Did you purchase the printer brand new? did you try the white abs filament that the printer is boxed with? i

caesar
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Location: Romania

Re: A few issues

Post by caesar » Sun May 04, 2014 3:04 pm

That perfboard in the last picture looks like it has seen at least 50-60 prints of different sizes on it.

Anyway, you will need a temp mod to print other types of ABS or PLA filament. Until you get there, source some original UP filament to really see the quality of the printer (great printer). 2-3 rolls will allow you to learn the printer and then try your hand at other types of filament.

Like the others said: level your bed manually once and then regularly check that value. After a few weeks you will be able to tweak that just by looking at the raft being printed.

EDIT: BTW, the blueish filament used on the spoon is so glossy, I could bet a lot of cash that it is PLA.

mr6k
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Re: A few issues

Post by mr6k » Sun May 04, 2014 4:37 pm

to test whether it is PLA or ABS is easy. ABS will melt in acetone (nail varnish remover) or MEK, PLA will not.

cheers

Peter

Chris botha
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Re: A few issues

Post by Chris botha » Sun May 04, 2014 9:33 pm

mb20music wrote:Did you purchase the printer brand new? did you try the white abs filament that the printer is boxed with? i
Second hand. It under warranty till end September so guessing 8 months old. I have seen prints form the original stuff, which were given to me with it, but they had been melted or dissolved to within an inch of there lives.. so cannot tell?
mr6k wrote:to test whether it is PLA or ABS is easy. ABS will melt in acetone (nail varnish remover) or MEK, PLA will not. cheers Peter
I got it with this ABS image in post below, 8 x 1kg rolls and 4 x 500gr rolls. The filament gets soft and tacky if exposed to Acetone for a few minutes, but does not actually melt or dissolve as such.
Last edited by Chris botha on Sun May 04, 2014 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Chris botha
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Joined: Sat May 03, 2014 7:30 am

Re: A few issues

Post by Chris botha » Sun May 04, 2014 9:37 pm

caesar wrote:That perfboard in the last picture looks like it has seen at least 50-60 prints of different sizes on it.
Yes second hand unit, previous owner advises that sometimes prints worked, other times they didnt.. they just thought its that kind of developing technology
caesar wrote:Anyway, you will need a temp mod to print other types of ABS or PLA filament.

Can someone suggest the simplist plug and play one that will do 245 degrees please
caesar wrote: Until you get there, source some original UP filament to really see the quality of the printer (great printer). 2-3 rolls will allow you to learn the printer and then try your hand at other types of filament.

I run a manufacturing factory in Thailand (which uses many printers from Envisiontech and SolidScape) and I travel a lot, so have very little time to expend on this project, it's supposed to have been dead simple for my kids to play with, the OOBE on this was poor, but I'm willing to expend some effort to get a temp mod and if it still doesnt perform, just can it, and get the boy a drone or something.. I can print his toys at work on the Perfactory.
caesar wrote:Like the others said: level your bed manually once and then regularly check that value. After a few weeks you will be able to tweak that just by looking at the raft being printed.
My experience from running my own CNC had me investigate the nozzle plate, undoing and fixing it.. it as on at an angle.. its now pretty accurate .If i can be bothered i will swop it for a Omron switch from my box of goodies ;), the electronics look elemental.
caesar wrote:EDIT: BTW, the blueish filament used on the spoon is so glossy, I could bet a lot of cash that it is PLA.
If I take your bet I can pay for more ABS.. ;)

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caesar
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Re: A few issues

Post by caesar » Sun May 04, 2014 11:15 pm

Chris botha wrote:Can someone suggest the simplist plug and play one that will do 245 degrees please

Simplest way is to add a resistor in series with the thermistor. It is about 1.8ohm/5C. Latest software uses 260C for printing ABS, so 15C less is 3x1.8ohm = about 5.4ohm resistor needed.
Chris botha wrote:[..] but I'm willing to expend some effort to get a temp mod and if it still doesnt perform, just can it, and get the boy a drone or something.. I can print his toys at work on the Perfactory.

At the moment it is the best you can buy in the price range, don't can it because of the bad filament.
Chris botha wrote:
caesar wrote:EDIT: BTW, the blueish filament used on the spoon is so glossy, I could bet a lot of cash that it is PLA.
If I take your bet I can pay for more ABS.. ;)
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Ha! You still believe what is written on the label next to Made in China while missing a thrustworthy and original brand name?
If it doesn't dissolve completly and pretty quick in acetone then it is a mix of scrap plastic materials, like most no-real-name filament.
You can also find a lot of metal in them but most certainly not pure ABS.

Chris botha
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Re: A few issues

Post by Chris botha » Sun May 04, 2014 11:48 pm

WInbo seems to be a pretty straight up company, other forums dont have users complaining, but consensus is the ABS needs 245 degree even though advertised to work from 210-260.. the filament is that cheap that it warrants trying to get the temp right..

I only quickly tried wiping the dice with acetone on a cotton swab.. i havent actually tried to melt it as such.. thats something interesting to try tonight i guess?

I paid 1500 for my unit and im guessing its because my seller has already bought from this vendor, they will be moving to this dual extruder unit from WInbo for 1399! lol! http://www.winbo-tech.com/3d-printer/goods-3877-bn.html

In other news, if the nozzle temp can be software controlled why is that option not available? Seems to be a rudimentary fix that wont require hacking up your machine? I guess for $50 on Odesk you could get a coder to hex dump and find the temperature and fix the binary for you too.. but that woudl be a pain in the butt to have to do with each release..

Chris botha
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Re: A few issues

Post by Chris botha » Mon May 05, 2014 4:52 am

Going to try something bigger with less detail tonight, longer build time.. lets see!

Any tips on this and how to avoid that horrendous finish onthe bottom surface?

(built from a parametric script i wrote, video on that in the thingiverse post, cannot figure out how to embed youtube on this forum.)

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:320811

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teamcarlisle
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Re: A few issues

Post by teamcarlisle » Mon May 05, 2014 10:50 am

Have you looked at the temperature switches from octave.com? I use them and they make a world of difference when using non oem plastic

Chris botha
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Re: A few issues

Post by Chris botha » Mon May 05, 2014 11:22 am

I will have to get one, not sure how it will help tho in case that developing below..


this surface finish on the OUTSIDE is tragic... oddly tho the inside surface of the bangle is perfectly smooth.. its like anything with an overhang comes up really poorly... the closer it gets to the middle of the bangle the less of this "corrugation" there is.. very strange.. and I dont think its the ABS.

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caesar
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Re: A few issues

Post by caesar » Mon May 05, 2014 3:22 pm

Chris botha wrote:WInbo seems to be a pretty straight up company, other forums dont have users complaining, but consensus is the ABS needs 245 degree even though advertised to work from 210-260.. the filament is that cheap that it warrants trying to get the temp right..
Cheap filament and cheap temp mod: add a 5.6ohm resistor in series and you will see the difference.

Chris botha wrote:I only quickly tried wiping the dice with acetone on a cotton swab.. i havent actually tried to melt it as such.. thats something interesting to try tonight i guess?
Please do, I'm interested, plus I bet a lot of virtual money ;)

Chris botha wrote:I paid 1500 for my unit and im guessing its because my seller has already bought from this vendor, they will be moving to this dual extruder unit from WInbo for 1399! lol! http://www.winbo-tech.com/3d-printer/goods-3877-bn.html
Not that it has any connection with the subject but that is a replicator 1 clone.
Tell them that they can get one starting at ~600USD for a kit (needs assembly) up to 1000USD ready to use.
But it won't perform even half the quality of the UP.

Chris botha wrote:In other news, if the nozzle temp can be software controlled why is that option not available? Seems to be a rudimentary fix that wont require hacking up your machine? I guess for $50 on Odesk you could get a coder to hex dump and find the temperature and fix the binary for you too.. but that woudl be a pain in the butt to have to do with each release..
UPs are click and print, get model, click print, voila nice print. Of course using the recommended filament.
Not using the recommended filament will get you bad results.

Some inspiration material for you: http://www.pp3dp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=23922

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DrewPetitclerc
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Re: A few issues

Post by DrewPetitclerc » Mon May 05, 2014 4:20 pm

Chris botha wrote:this surface finish on the OUTSIDE is tragic... oddly tho the inside surface of the bangle is perfectly smooth.. its like anything with an overhang comes up really poorly... the closer it gets to the middle of the bangle the less of this "corrugation" there is.. very strange.. and I dont think its the ABS.
Two things are going to effect the surface finish on all vertical walls:
1. Is the build plate held rigid on its mount?
NO, if it is using the original springs or wave washers around the the leveling screws, these should be thrown out and a central column of a heat resistant high durometer rubber should be used with screws tightened to a high torque/compression.
2. Is the mount bracket for the extruder to the X slide rigid?
NO, if it is one of the older bent flat sheet metal design that allows the extruder bounce up and down while in motion, the newer design is a thicker bent sheet metal, better but not 100% of a solution.

As the system is tracking through the build there will be oscillation of the build plate and nozzle that will cause the effects seen, understanding the tool-path motions and the quick direction changes going on should be the first clue, this why the inside, a smooth curve looks better than the outside, a very twisted, sharp angle, path.

Hope this clears up some of what you are seeing. :ugeek:
Regards
Drew
Drew Petitclerc
Petitclerc Designs
Owner/Senior Principal Designer, prototype, tooling and test equipment design and 3D printing
http://flash-graphics.deviantart.com/
http://www.thingiverse.com/DrewPetitclerc

Chris botha
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Re: A few issues

Post by Chris botha » Mon May 05, 2014 10:07 pm

DrewPetitclerc wrote:
Chris botha wrote:this surface finish on the OUTSIDE is tragic... oddly tho the inside surface of the bangle is perfectly smooth.. its like anything with an overhang comes up really poorly... the closer it gets to the middle of the bangle the less of this "corrugation" there is.. very strange.. and I dont think its the ABS.
Two things are going to effect the surface finish on all vertical walls:
1. Is the build plate held rigid on its mount?
NO, if it is using the original springs or wave washers around the the leveling screws, these should be thrown out and a central column of a heat resistant high durometer rubber should be used with screws tightened to a high torque/compression.
2. Is the mount bracket for the extruder to the X slide rigid?
NO, if it is one of the older bent flat sheet metal design that allows the extruder bounce up and down while in motion, the newer design is a thicker bent sheet metal, better but not 100% of a solution.

As the system is tracking through the build there will be oscillation of the build plate and nozzle that will cause the effects seen, understanding the tool-path motions and the quick direction changes going on should be the first clue, this why the inside, a smooth curve looks better than the outside, a very twisted, sharp angle, path.

Hope this clears up some of what you are seeing. :ugeek:
Regards
Drew
Now we are talking my language.. toolpaths and machine rigidity I understand, having owned 4 CNC units and repaired many.. the oscillation I got in my stepper based machines was bad until I figured out that harmonics in the controller were causing issues at certain feed rates with certain path types that contained lots of XY motions.. I could overcome that by filtering the and shielding the cabling and running the machine at the correct feeds.

(my test run was to cut an engraved line into the worst possible scenario surface, perfect sine over X,Y and Z.. you can see the camera affected by the machine shake but at teh cutting head perfect stillness) http://digital-jeweller.blogspot.com.au ... rface.html

I also hear what you are saying about the build platform, in fact the Y arm shakes a lot too.. other than mounting an angle bracket to bolster that i am unsure how to get it sorted.. do you have a direct link to your build platform fix?

in terms of the "bubbles" or corrugation it even happens on perfectly flat surfaces where the code should be instructing a perfectly straight run along Y or X.

Image
and link to higher res image
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-lij9 ... 070156.jpg

and if i break those dice open, the interior wall is perfectly smooth... I can only think this is related to the wall thickness and the "filler" that the software puts in which causes very fast zigzag motions to fill the interior with braces, overlapping to the outside? This will not explain why its only on the bottom and not the top...

I had assumed it might be incorrect melt point but see my response to other poster below regarding that...

(as you seem au faix with cnc tech you may enjoy some of my last controller builds on my latest desktop cnc, which has a difficult birth having to manually reconfigure a 6 axis controller in MACH3 to run on her... http://digital-jeweller.blogspot.com.au ... amily.html)

Chris botha
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Re: A few issues

Post by Chris botha » Mon May 05, 2014 10:14 pm

caesar wrote:
Chris botha wrote:WInbo seems to be a pretty straight up company, other forums dont have users complaining, but consensus is the ABS needs 245 degree even though advertised to work from 210-260.. the filament is that cheap that it warrants trying to get the temp right..
Cheap filament and cheap temp mod: add a 5.6ohm resistor in series and you will see the difference.

Chris botha wrote:I only quickly tried wiping the dice with acetone on a cotton swab.. i havent actually tried to melt it as such.. thats something interesting to try tonight i guess?
Please do, I'm interested, plus I bet a lot of virtual money ;)

Chris botha wrote:I paid 1500 for my unit and im guessing its because my seller has already bought from this vendor, they will be moving to this dual extruder unit from WInbo for 1399! lol! http://www.winbo-tech.com/3d-printer/goods-3877-bn.html
Not that it has any connection with the subject but that is a replicator 1 clone.
Tell them that they can get one starting at ~600USD for a kit (needs assembly) up to 1000USD ready to use.
But it won't perform even half the quality of the UP.

Chris botha wrote:In other news, if the nozzle temp can be software controlled why is that option not available? Seems to be a rudimentary fix that wont require hacking up your machine? I guess for $50 on Odesk you could get a coder to hex dump and find the temperature and fix the binary for you too.. but that woudl be a pain in the butt to have to do with each release..
UPs are click and print, get model, click print, voila nice print. Of course using the recommended filament.
Not using the recommended filament will get you bad results.

Some inspiration material for you: http://www.pp3dp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=23922
Well.. when you are right, you are right..

The filament got "breaky" and very very slightly tacky in Acetone, but did not melt as such, actually did not melt at all.. I owe you some virtual money.. :oops:

So i tested it setup as PLA.. it actually extruded at that temp, but not hot enough... the print base was better, the raft or whtever its called, cleaner lines .. but about 5mm up everything started curling up and bending and print came loose from the platform.. I could peel off the raft quite easily, but i could also peel off the layers of the print.. :lol:

Even at the low temp the "bubbles/corrugation" i observe in ALL my prints were there.. so at least we know now the filament needs below 260 and above 217.. :roll:
Ordered the Octave temp Controller. Also got mates on Odesk to examine the firmware and software to see if the temps are hardcoded in either and to give me options via an external interface that will overwrite mem locations once loaded. (think game trainer) I could probably do this myself with a hex editor and runtime debugger but cannot be bothered.. nor do i have the time...

Ill trade you the virtual money for a virtual drink?


what Im going to do about that crappy surface is another issue...

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DrewPetitclerc
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Re: A few issues

Post by DrewPetitclerc » Mon May 05, 2014 11:25 pm

Chris botha wrote:
what Im going to do about that crappy surface is another issue...
Water in the plastic will be flashed to steam in the barrel and cause pulses in the feed sometimes heard as "popping", if you live in a humid climate this could be a part of the problem.
Many believe the extruder feed is a smooth flow, they are wrong, knowing how a stepper motor works, its very name suggests small steps, so small changes in the plastic diameter cause varied feed rates and a close inspection of a single line will reveal small pulses, sometimes there is too much plastic pressed out and you can get a small curl at the edges of the nozzle flat (think about spreading frosting on a cake), these are later pushed around by the nozzle on its next apposing pass and create ugly surfaces. :geek:

Also be wary of the plastics suppliers, they like to toss in "regrind" to save costs and I have found many ABS spools that if you take a single foot and bend small 1/2 inch segments back on themselves far too many break, they should only bend and turn lighter/white if fresh ABS stock, when it breaks you have a "regrind" spot, "regrind" is a recycled bad injection molded part ground up and sprinkled into fresh material but since it has been through a heat extrusion cycle at least once it is now a weaker material and will not perform as expected. :ugeek:

I've on many occasions been asked by suppliers to test new batches of material from different/new manufacturers, it has been quite the eye opener to the old saying, "Not all ABS is created equal". :shock:

Some of the better suppliers specify "No Regrind Permitted" from the plastic manufacturers, Octave and Makerbot have proven to me to be reliable suppliers of quality plastics. :mrgreen:

Regards
Drew
Drew Petitclerc
Petitclerc Designs
Owner/Senior Principal Designer, prototype, tooling and test equipment design and 3D printing
http://flash-graphics.deviantart.com/
http://www.thingiverse.com/DrewPetitclerc

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