!$%!@! 3D printing

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rjmorel
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!$%!@! 3D printing

Post by rjmorel » Thu May 01, 2014 3:08 am

Have any of you been able to consistently print good, large parts with your Afinia??
I'm really put out with my printing results, I've leveled the platform, checked and rechecked the nozzle height on my Afinia. The software and machine seem to work like they are supposed to. But the warping and pulling off the platform are killing all my projects by making warped parts. Here's some pics. What to do ? Filament is from Octave.
5 1/2 hours down the tube again. This is getting so frustrating , the warping starts 1/2-1 hour after print starts and I thought we were home free dag nabbers.
sorry to rant, I want my mommy
Thanks rj
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mb20music
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Re: !$%!@! 3D printing

Post by mb20music » Thu May 01, 2014 3:12 pm

Close the cooling fan completely and put the printer in an enclosure.

LonV
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Re: !$%!@! 3D printing

Post by LonV » Thu May 01, 2014 4:25 pm

It's not so much the Afinia/UP! as it the material (ABS)...it's a pain in the ass. The only time I've been able to print parts of that size is with an enclosure...even then it can still warp sometimes.

ming
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Re: !$%!@! 3D printing

Post by ming » Thu May 01, 2014 5:42 pm

have you tried the original ABS ? if using octave filament did you use a temp controller ?
Dream@night / Holdit@sameday

rjmorel
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Re: !$%!@! 3D printing

Post by rjmorel » Thu May 01, 2014 6:14 pm

Yes I have a 2 setting temp switch from octiva that runs it a little cooler for their ABS. I just bought a enclosure off Ebay this morning for my Afinia and will try that next. I had a cardboard box enclosure but it was a pain to use. Thanks for your speedy replies. I'm wondering if I should look at another larger printer for doing larger parts or will the problem be universal with any of them? rj

rjmorel
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Re: !$%!@! 3D printing

Post by rjmorel » Thu May 01, 2014 6:15 pm

And I do have the cooling fan closed down also, rj

roller
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Re: !$%!@! 3D printing

Post by roller » Fri May 02, 2014 3:50 pm

ABS expands when heated and shrinks as it cools. These forces are quite strong especially if cooling is rapid and on really big prints.

There are really two main paths you can take with such a big print.

1. Don't print in ABS - switch to PLA (I recommend Colorfabb - you will have the least effort to get it going but you will need a temp mod - use it about 210C on ABS setting)

2. Build an enclosure to hold in the heat around your build platform. Seal it up before you start heating your build platform and keep it sealed until the print has cooled gradually.

Usually I go to PLA once my prints are over 100x100 (mm) no matter how tall they are but once they get to 100x100x20+high then for me PLA is almost a certainty because ABS becomes too much of a pain in the **se.

rjmorel
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Re: !$%!@! 3D printing

Post by rjmorel » Fri May 02, 2014 4:01 pm

I just bought an enclosure off Ebay and have the Octive temp control to run it at a cooler temp for the Octive mtrl.
Fan is closed off .
How does PLA compare to ABS strength wise and longevity wise.
Is the warping a universal problem with all ABS printing when doing large parts?
I make prototype parts and end user parts supplementing my injection molding business.
Do any of you dry out the moisture in your abs filament? In injection molding we dry 3-4 hrs at 180 deg.
thanks, rj

teamcarlisle
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Re: !$%!@! 3D printing

Post by teamcarlisle » Sat May 03, 2014 7:19 am

I'll second the suggestion for an enclosure, during the summer time if you are printing in a hot room you'll have less problems with warping. ABS benifits greatly from warm ambient air. I've had a lot of luck with the enclosure from octave.

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JuliaDee
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Re: !$%!@! 3D printing

Post by JuliaDee » Sat May 03, 2014 4:52 pm

I've had better luck printing large flat parts like yours "on edge". Warping becomes less of a problem but splitting may become more of one. An enclosure will definitely help, and I'd stick with OEM filament for something like this.

roller
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Re: !$%!@! 3D printing

Post by roller » Tue May 06, 2014 7:56 am

rjmorel wrote:I just bought an enclosure off Ebay and have the Octive temp control to run it at a cooler temp for the Octive mtrl.
Fan is closed off .
How does PLA compare to ABS strength wise and longevity wise.
Is the warping a universal problem with all ABS printing when doing large parts?
I make prototype parts and end user parts supplementing my injection molding business.
Do any of you dry out the moisture in your abs filament? In injection molding we dry 3-4 hrs at 180 deg.
thanks, rj
Well the enclosure will help as it lets the stress get taken up more evenly by cooling slower but it's not a magic bullet.

PLA is harder than ABS but partly as a result of that fact also more brittle - so if you need a part to flex or undergo some other plastic deformation without breaking ABS is better. If you want rigidity then often PLA is better. ABS should be stronger than PLA but the interlayer bonding is often better with PLA so I find PLA is also often more successful for prints that require tensile strength perpendicular to the plane of the print layers. PLA is also good for sacrificial molding as it readily vaporises without leaving a residue.

ABS is generally more durable and the stronger choice and if you need the part to survive in warm environments (above 50C for standard PLA and about 80C for Colorfabb) the better choice.

Curiously, I generally find my PLA prints last longer as models that get handled and used a lot. Possibly because the PLA is less affected by oils, glues and other solvents and there are lots around the studio but I expect my experiences here are a little off the typical trend and ABS should last longer for most uses.

Many of the filaments of choice are hydrophilic and quickly soak up water out of even low humidity environs. This tends to only be an issue after some time when considerable water has been absorbed with the result being print quality being degraded by pops of steam while printing. The printing process itself gets rid of a lot of the moisture if it's a concern for follow up processes in your injection molding but to keep your print quality at it's optimum it's worth keeping your filament as dry as possible especially if some of it will sit around for a few months. I keep mine in an airtight drum with a water absorbing layer in the base with is changed regularly - the drum also goes into the sun from time to time to give it a few days roasting. Others store their filament on their hot water systems while some just roast their filament when it proves to have degraded the prints too greatly.

ftdesigns
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Re: !$%!@! 3D printing

Post by ftdesigns » Wed May 07, 2014 1:31 pm

For something this big, USE AN ENCLOSURE. You don't need to buy one off eBay, just throw a large tupperware container over it.

rjmorel
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Re: !$%!@! 3D printing

Post by rjmorel » Thu May 08, 2014 5:52 pm

OK so the Octave enclosure just came in. Nice unit, well built out of plastic sheeting. Has 3 little lights and fan. It's all wired together so when lights are on , fan is on
My question is do I run the fan while printing or not ????
It seems that the fan would negate the purpose of the enclosure by causing drafts and pulling the heat out of the machine enclosure ????
Also have any of you had your print stop part way because of the platform over heating?? I have when I put a card board box over the printer.
Thanks for your very practical help everyone. rj

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JuliaDee
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Re: !$%!@! 3D printing

Post by JuliaDee » Thu May 08, 2014 7:18 pm

I put a switch on the fan, and turn it on or off depending on what I feel the print needs most. If warping is the main issue then I leave it off to get it as hot as possible in there. If warping is not a concern but support removal is, I might leave it on. Lots of (somewhat educated) guesswork and trial-and-error :)

roller
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Re: !$%!@! 3D printing

Post by roller » Fri May 09, 2014 10:48 am

JuliaDee wrote:I put a switch on the fan, and turn it on or off depending on what I feel the print needs most. If warping is the main issue then I leave it off to get it as hot as possible in there. If warping is not a concern but support removal is, I might leave it on. Lots of (somewhat educated) guesswork and trial-and-error :)
But the primary purpose of the fan is to keep the heat from rising up from the hotend into the feeder/extruder assembly causing a misfeed. Leaving the barrier closed should be enough to keep the cooler air directly off the print.

Further, leaving the fan running, especially when using an enclosure will actually increase the ambient air temp around the print by moving more heat from the feeder tube (and connected hotend) into the air. So turning the fan off only servers to make the feed tube hotter increasing the risk of jams and theoretically lowering the air temp around the printer ... in turn increasing the risk of warp ... though all this would probably only make a tiny difference.

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JuliaDee
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Re: !$%!@! 3D printing

Post by JuliaDee » Fri May 09, 2014 12:49 pm

roller wrote: But the primary purpose of the fan is to keep the heat from rising up from the hotend into the feeder/extruder assembly causing a misfeed. Leaving the barrier closed should be enough to keep the cooler air directly off the print.

Further, leaving the fan running, especially when using an enclosure will actually increase the ambient air temp around the print by moving more heat from the feeder tube (and connected hotend) into the air. So turning the fan off only servers to make the feed tube hotter increasing the risk of jams and theoretically lowering the air temp around the printer ... in turn increasing the risk of warp ... though all this would probably only make a tiny difference.
We're talking about the exhaust fan built into the Octave enclosure, not the extruder cooling fan.
Last edited by JuliaDee on Fri May 09, 2014 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ming
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Re: !$%!@! 3D printing

Post by ming » Fri May 09, 2014 1:17 pm

Any concerns if the printer is inside an enclosure the electronics may not like it ?
Dream@night / Holdit@sameday

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JuliaDee
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Re: !$%!@! 3D printing

Post by JuliaDee » Fri May 09, 2014 1:24 pm

ming wrote:Any concerns if the printer is inside an enclosure the electronics may not like it ?
I've been using the Octave enclosure for five months now without any problems. There is some ventilation at the base. Around the build area, the temp sits around 38-40C and it's much cooler down below, so I think the electronics are fine.

I did enclose my Zortrax fully (and tightly) and got it up to around 60C - I think it killed the extruder fan. But the Zortrax's electronics are not in the build chamber enclosure.

julia

ming
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Re: !$%!@! 3D printing

Post by ming » Fri May 09, 2014 1:31 pm

JuliaDee wrote:
ming wrote:Any concerns if the printer is inside an enclosure the electronics may not like it ?
I've been using the Octave enclosure for five months now without any problems. There is some ventilation at the base. Around the build area, the temp sits around 38-40C and it's much cooler down below, so I think the electronics are fine.

I did enclose my Zortrax fully (and tightly) and got it up to around 60C - I think it killed the extruder fan. But the Zortrax's electronics are not in the build chamber enclosure.

julia
Thanks for the Info Julia.
I will run a baseline measurement of the temperature with the printer - with and without enclosure - i expect it to be a few degrees more which im ok but its nice to know. I will be moving my filaments out from the sealed enclosure and use it for the printer and use my luggage vacuum pack bag as my filament storage. I will post a picture if i get a chance of my setup with enclosure.

if i have the clearance i may wire a small fan circulating the air around electronics and vent it into the chamber
Dream@night / Holdit@sameday

rjmorel
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Re: !$%!@! 3D printing

Post by rjmorel » Fri May 09, 2014 3:45 pm

Ran my first print in the Octave enclosure and was impressed with the enclosure. It did get warm in there with the enclosure fan off. I just unplugged fan from the terminal. Print had no delamination and the raft didn't pull up from the perf board like before. Yay. I left it running for 45 min and came back and the printer was stopped in the middle of a 6 hour long print. Like it just stopped dead in it's tracts. It's done this before and I'm not sure why. Sometimes I get a "platform temperature to hot" and it shuts down. I had changed back to the original version of software (1.17 I think ) that came with machine and it didn't give me the to hot platform message. It was still connected to my computer and the red/green light was flashing like it was receiving code from the computer. The computer did kick off and hibernate so I'm wondering if that has something to do with it. Should I disconnect the printer from the computer once it starts printing????
thanks again for all the help to my noobiness, rj

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