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Thinking about UP..

Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 2:47 am
by chippwalters
Hi folks. I'm currently a Cube user. I've had a Cubify Cube Series 1 printer for 10 months, and just purchased a Series 2 printer-- but I'm thinking of throwing them both away and switching. The quality control at Cubify is sadly horrendous. Their support groups is pretty good. I'm on my second Series 1 printer after trying a new print head and they finally gave up and just sent me a whole new Series 1 printer. My print head now won't heat. For the last few months it actually worked pretty well, but the filament cartridges have lots of issues-- primarily only 1 of 2 cartridges actually work, and it's 7X the price. Yup-- you heard me right. 7X $$$. Ouch. I find I want to print more and more and frankly just can't afford it.

The Series 2 printer arrived DOA a couple weeks ago. I've replaced the print head twice and finally they're sending out a new whole printer too. Just like the first. Frankly the NON-HEATED print bed will be a problem I fear.

So, I'm looking at UP for a new printer and have some questions:

Can you print raftless and supportless? Cube does this no problem.
Is it possible to print via USB or do you HAVE to HAVE a computer attached? Again Cube prints with USB and I really prefer it versus having to boot up a connected laptop, and then connect and print.
What is the warranty like? How about support?
What are the negatives?

Thanks so very much for candid replies!

Re: Thinking about UP..

Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 3:57 am
by LonV
I'm glad you're considering an Up!. I have two printers, one is a Makergear M2 which is a really solidly built Reprap and I have an Afinia (http://www.afinia.com) (It's the same printer as Up! Plus).

My Afinia is the easiest printer to use. Level the platform, set the nozzle height and basically every print is solid with no tweaking...I don't think you'll be disappointed.
chippwalters wrote: Can you print raftless and supportless? Cube does this no problem.
Yes, you can print both raftless and supportless in the v2.0 software. Although, I love raft...and it and support remove so easy I'd recommend experimenting with it. But if you have models that just can't have support, it's no problem...I've done it a few times and it's worked out great. The bridging is very solid.
chippwalters wrote: Is it possible to print via USB or do you HAVE to HAVE a computer attached? Again Cube prints with USB and I really prefer it versus having to boot up a connected laptop, and then connect and print.
Once the slicing is sent to the printer it no longer needs to be connected to the computer. You can hook up a laptop, print, detach and let it go. But do you mean with an SD card instead? There is no visible SD card to load prints off of.
chippwalters wrote: What is the warranty like? How about support?
I really can't answer this for general Up!. But Afinia support has been pretty solid.
chippwalters wrote: What are the negatives?
I'm sure there will be differing opinions, but here are mine:

1) No software control for slight temperature modifications. It does have a PLA/ABS setting, but I still find it too hot for PLA. The default ABS temp is also very hot, and can make aftermarket ABS difficult to remove support/raft (although layer bonding would be good). There are hardware mods available like the one from Octave (http://www.octave.com/p1173433163/Extru ... _info.html), but it's just a simple resistor and there are plenty of people here that have built better, more flexible solutions. If you want to build your own, it's not super difficult, but requires some soldiering skills.

2) Platform size. My M2 is 10 inches x 10 inches x 8 inches, my Afinia is 5.5 x 5.5x x 5.5. I like bigger platforms, but honestly, I'm just a hobbyist, so really it almost never hinders me...but I do wish they'd make a bigger one.

3) ABS warping can be a problem, but this obviously isn't a limitation of the Up! but 3d printing in general. But printing with PLA requires some type of temp modification. Without that, it generally doesn't work very well.

Good luck on your choice, so far my experience here in the Up! community has been great!

Re: Thinking about UP..

Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 4:07 am
by bobjohn1
I've asked this a couple other places, but how do I print without supports in v2.0 of the software?

Re: Thinking about UP..

Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:37 am
by roller
That's a fine summary. I am also a reprap user and builder as well as an Up owner. I have built countless 3D printers over the last 3 years often with a build quality and reliability that exceeds some of the bigger names in reprap style printers (Makerbot for example) and I get great print results. The said I bought an up about 10 months ago because it just seemed simpler and the way in which it prints support has no equal in the cheap printers. This make complex model easily printable and the support plastic required to make it work snaps away easily.

What is wrong with the the Up! For one the lack of temp control but I built my own mod in an hour and can now move the temp up and down very simply. This means I can use any ABS without any fuss and still get the great support removal. See some great examples of the mods people have made here:
http://www.pp3dp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=22170
They are nothing more than common switches and commonly available resistors.

The other big issue is printing PLA. All direct drive extruder printers that have smaller stepper motors have trouble with most PLA. This is because the motors get warm which softens the PLA and causes it to jam. Some have fixed this with air injection to keep the PLA and drive gear cool using a fish tank pump. I have gone to using only premium PLA which is a little more expensive but has a higher melt point. Colorfabb PLA is one such example which I have recently found to work great albeit by using my temp mod on the ABS setting -the default PLA setting produces stringy results.

Overall my UP now sees far more use than the repraps. The only time the reprap gets used is if the print must be in PLA or must be larger than the print area of the UP and doesn't require too much support. Of course if I can get away with gluing the model later then I typically still do it on the UP.

The Up also seems to print a bit faster than a Cube.
If ABS is your medium of choice I think the Up is still unbeatable under $4K. If you need a temp mod made I am sure you can get one of us to make one for you for a reasonable fee - I am thinking about selling my pushwheel ones for $20 a pop. It just plugs in and doesn't requiring any warranty breaking soldering or modification to existing components.

If PLA is your thing then you might want to look elsewhere or consider so more aggressive (still under $100) modifications that still will not affect your warranty ... or look to one of the repraps as PLA is their prime medium of choice though you still wont get good, easy to remove support material.

All the above applies to the Up Plus and I would steer clear of the Up Mini - it's heated bed really isn't hot enough and it's enclosure gets too warm for good PLA. (Mini owners, I'm oversimplifying the issues and generalising)

Re: Thinking about UP..

Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:30 am
by chippwalters
Thanks guys. I actually was online and chatted with the head of sales for Octave-- and he sold me a printer. I'm looking forward to it. Have to say the Cubify experience is sure a mixed bag. On one hand they have a nice UX with the built-in display and all. On the other hand the ridiculous DRM (which doesn't always work) and cost of the filament is only just eclipsed by the poor quality control. Just about everyone I know has had to replace something on them. In particular, the print head is just about dead if it clogs. No easy way of fixing it...

So, I'll take the next step and see what this new Afinia does. Looking forward to spending some time here in this forum perusing the posts. FWIW, I did purchase the temperature switch (I know-- binary) and some nylon as well. And I'll be getting some Octave filament with the printer.

Any advice for a newbie here? (BTW, another great point is the fact you guys actually have a forum!)

Re: Thinking about UP..

Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:40 am
by LonV
I don't think you'll be disappointed.

1) The best results will come faster if you take the time to physically level the bed and get the nozzle height right. The Afinia was my first printer and I knew I was supposed to, but skipped past that point. I got a great first print (luckily) but then I couldn't get it to adhere to the bed. After I went back and leveled the bed properly and got the nozzle height right, I got great prints.

2) Afinia isn't going to give you the version 2.0 software (they're still on 1.9) but download the software from pp3dp.com or from 3dprintingsystems.com and you'll be good to go with supportless prints.

3) Get some acetone (I get mine at Walmart in a big can, but you can get it at the hardware store or even beauty supply shows) and wipe down the perfboard (the default printing surface for Up/Afinia) between prints. This will eliminate oils (and pre-soften any ABS stuck in the holes) which will help with bed adhesion.

4) When printing, always pre-heat your bed for 15-20 minutes (longer is good too). This will also help with adhesion.

5) With any 3D printing, it takes time and failures to really get things right. Feel free to ask questions.

If you want to see some things I've made from Thingiverse, check it out here: http://www.thingiverse.com/LonV/made Everything on there (other than the blue Zombie Hunter Head) was done on my Afinia.

-Lon

PS -- btw, I don't work for Afinia, Up!, or Octave...I'm just a fan of them. :P

Re: Thinking about UP..

Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:25 am
by mr6k
Lon advised that all UP/Afina printers use perfboard as their defualt platform.
Is that really the case?
I know I have an older printer but its base is aluminium

cheers

peter

Re: Thinking about UP..

Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:13 am
by roller
After a while they starting selling them with perfboards. The earlier models did not have them.

On point 4 I think that's unnecessarily long warm up. I just preheat the bed until it say 100C. I've never had an ABS print peel up and I print really hard (warping) prints.

Re: Thinking about UP..

Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:28 pm
by amd-tec
Could anyone print this file with UP! printer http://cubify.com/store/creation.aspx?r ... KR1JKOK5X9 ?
I couldn`t, but as you see that @prsnlz printed it with Cube perfectly https://twitter.com/prsnlz/status/37053 ... 28/photo/1.

So the question is, what is the minimun wall thickness when printing with Cube?

Re: Thinking about UP..

Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:51 pm
by JuliaDee
LonV wrote:I don't think you'll be disappointed.

1) The best results will come faster if you take the time to physically level the bed and get the nozzle height right.
Actually, the Afinia I purchased in May has never had one single adjustment since I took it out of the box, and has printed flawlessly on a daily basis since. Never leveled the bed, not even sure if I had to set the platform height. Amazing.

Re platforms, AFAIK the Up/Afinia has always had an aluminum platform and has always shipped with clip-on perfboard plates. Good idea to always remove the perfboard before trying to remove your part(s) - don't try to do it with the perfboard clipped to the platform.

Julia

Re: Thinking about UP..

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:48 am
by roller
Actually, the Afinia I purchased in May has never had one single adjustment since I took it out of the box, and has printed flawlessly on a daily basis since. Never leveled the bed, not even sure if I had to set the platform height. Amazing.
Except perhaps a temperature adjustment ;)

But I'm the same - I have only re-leveled once in ten months and that was my fault ... I thought it was out of level but I was actually remembering my start level wrong (after an update wiped out the start level - that seems to be a mac/windows thing).
Could anyone print this file with UP! printer http://cubify.com/store/creation.aspx?r ... KR1JKOK5X9 ?
I couldn`t, but as you see that @prsnlz printed it with Cube perfectly https://twitter.com/prsnlz/status/37053 ... 28/photo/1.
You'll want to print that with the shell setting I think ... or is it the surface settings.... pretty sure it's shell. One of those - I haven't sued them enough to remember which does which. Another alternative if you wanted to print with an earlier version of software (like using 1.15 for better PLA printing) then you can use the Autodesk 3D print tool to automatically thicken thin walls (I love that tool so much)

Re: Thinking about UP..

Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:26 am
by amd-tec
roller wrote:
You'll want to print that with the shell setting I think ... or is it the surface settings.... pretty sure it's shell. One of those - I haven't sued them enough to remember which does which. Another alternative if you wanted to print with an earlier version of software (like using 1.15 for better PLA printing) then you can use the Autodesk 3D print tool to automatically thicken thin walls (I love that tool so much)
The idea was to print the original file without modifications, tried to print with shell option, it didn`t work.
Would like to know how nice Cube print the original and what settings are?
But sure will look after 3d print tool, thanks for info!

amd-tec