How good is the UP300 ?

Share your experience with UP300!
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cadcam
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon May 26, 2014 3:03 am

How good is the UP300 ?

Post by cadcam » Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:39 pm

Dear All,

I wondered if users of the UP300 could give me a realistic view of it capabilities and comparison to the UP Box and other systems

I have been using UP systems for 7+ years and have great success with all including old Plus 1s which have been great workhorses. A number of years ago I wanted to buy a UP Box but the late delivery meant I had to go with another supplier to get the greater platform area, however I have never managed to get the quality of an UP. I have access to an UP box but would ideally like a new machine for a series of student projects coming up. Critical is

1) Good accuracy
2) High Quality surface finish
3) ABS
4) Thin walled structures

Possibilities included buying a Box+ (New or I have been offered a low use one secondhand), go for the UP300, of possibly go away from UP/Tiertime again - we run a number of Ultimakers etc. [I had toyed with buying a X5 but the cost and continuing delays are not filling me with confidence. The robustness of the structure looks very appealing for student use, but...]

However i wondered if the owners of UP300 would give a true review of their machines, inc answers to

1) There is a list of bugs/'it would be nice to have'... but are these show stoppers.
2) Would it be better to share a BOX for a while to wait for the UP300+ / upgrades?
3) Is there a significant quality up lift from a Box making the price difference worth it?
4) Is the buliding on the glass plates successful, to the point it could be routine use with students?
5) Do you think that better/similar results can be obtained with other supplier systems in the same price bracket? If yes, which ones?

Any feedback would be welcomed.

Many Thanks


cadcam
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon May 26, 2014 3:03 am

Re: How good is the UP300 ?

Post by cadcam » Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:43 pm

Thank you very much for the link. The last posting was in November** and at least one poster referred to pre-order machines etc. Does anyone know if there have been any improvements and should a buyer be concerned re old stock? I have heard comments from suppliers indicating that the UP300 isn't selling very well and have been pushed towards other suppliers, Ultimaker, Zortrax etc. However, I am really like the quality I get from the Pluses and Box so would really like to find out if it is worth going to the 300. [I have just been printing models for our students on an old Plus because it is giving a better finish and robustness using ABS than the output from an Ultimaker, so I have faith]

** Hope this means that everyone machine is working really well and there are no problems. Is there anywhere else that people discuss the UP300? I remember when Pluses were all a rage the forums were buzzing with activity, new ideas, mods, build methods etc,. Is the UP300 just amazing solid never giving a problem or is the user base small and/or not communicating very much?

Many Thanks

Owen Sparks aka Marksman
Posts: 610
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2016 9:56 am

Re: How good is the UP300 ?

Post by Owen Sparks aka Marksman » Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:53 pm

Well it's the first TT full size machine that I'm aware of that we can upgrade the firmware on, so I'm hoping the "early machine" isn't an issue. The internals look very similar to he BOX so they tend to work... To my mind it's lower risk than a brand new machine concept.

I hope to purchase a couple to replace some "time served" (aka knackered) UPBox machines so hope to be able to give a side by side comparison of BOX / BOX+ ? UP300 fairly soon.

The new UP300 extruders fit on the BOX and I've been pleased with the results, we can now print PLA reliably for the first time for example.

Cheers,
Owen S.
Last edited by Owen Sparks aka Marksman on Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cadcam
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon May 26, 2014 3:03 am

Re: How good is the UP300 ?

Post by cadcam » Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:50 pm

Very many thanks for the reply and I look forward to reading your comparison.

In the meantime I have been speaking to various suppliers and searching the
web for more input.

The area I am still having difficulty getting good comparable reviews is on
the accuracy and finish that can be achieved by the various machines. In some
cases we believe that this is being driven by the quality of the STL files
presented to the machines but for similar files the stiffness and control of the
individual drive systems is obviously significant. Simply achieved, high
quality components is very useful to us given the wide range of small
featured mechanical related models we put through our machines. For example we
often produce items with gear tooth profiles, however currently recommend
students not use smaller than MOD 1 on FDM machines {lower on SLA/FormLab
systems}. The limit is it to ensure we get a good finish and reasonable tooth
strength without having to experiment with settings/alignments etc. I am being
told that the Cubicon (Single Plus/Style) can do better, but I haven't seen
evidence yet. I was wondering if anyone has been using the 0.2mm noozles on
UP300s and could give any feedback about any accuracy and finish
improvements***, e.g. is it possible to simply print gear teeth <=0.8M?

[It is strange how little quantitative information on finish is available.]

If we were to purchase UP300 it is likely we would use ABS (+ a little TPU). I
wonder if Tiertime could advise if it is possible to re-allocate the PLA head
(with a suitable change of cooling duct) as a second ABS head. e.g. giving
quick head change between 0.4 and 0.2 mm noozles.

***When needing smooth surfaces on cams/sliding surface/gear teeth etc we
use localised mechanical and/or acetone smoothing. Obviously the finer the
finish the lower the required exposure to Acetone reducing time and
improving mechanical properties. We have some experience using 0.15, 0.2
layer heights but I wondered if Tiertime have any releasable data giving
typical CLA/Ra values for 0.05mm? If not has anyone else got information or would be willing to sun some test pieces to generate some user data for this forum?

Related is the production of 2/2.5 D structures as part of flexures. In many
cases these require smooth thin wall features with uniform mechanical
properties. We have had some success with
various FDM machines and wondered if anyone was investigating/using similar
structures with the UP300. We have a fallback of EDM for the students but if
we could improve the FDM results it could significantly increase throughput.

I understand these may be seen as very specific requests for information, but would welcome feedback points to links etc.

Thanks Again

pentrena
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:59 am

Re: How good is the UP300 ?

Post by pentrena » Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:10 am

cadcam wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:50 pm
Very many thanks for the reply and I look forward to reading your comparison.

In the meantime I have been speaking to various suppliers and searching the
web for more input. ........
...
..
Hello, I'm just trying this machine to offer it to my industrial clients. I tell you a little about my experience ....

As you already knew, one of the most important characteristics to give greater resistance, is to be able to print 4 or 5 perimeters of impression, or also called exterior walls (I do not speak English and use google), that with up studio, you can not.

If you have worked with small nozles, you will know that they are more complex and require more adjustments in the software, such as retraction and velocity of the same, that stops extruding xxx mm before retraction, that you begin to extrude xxx mm before after the retraction .... parameters that you will already know, and that upstudio does not have.

The machine as such, is a jewel, is very well thought out, assembled and works very well, but is not accompanied by software with many possibilities, that limits it. On the other hand, the few options, allow very good impressions to people who have never had contact with 3D printers. I would recommend it for the moment, but as I say I'm still doing tests. I have been able to print materials such as polycarbonate, which in other machines has proved impossible
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cadcam
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon May 26, 2014 3:03 am

Re: How good is the UP300 ?

Post by cadcam » Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:49 pm

Thank you for the feedback, look forward to reading about the further tests.

The gear looks quite good, I wondered if you might be willing to put the .stl file up so others could try and
generate models from other machines and give a comparison?

Thanks Again

cj7hawk
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:52 am

Re: How good is the UP300 ?

Post by cj7hawk » Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:30 am

Another perspective here.

Most of the UP300 I find pretty good. The rigidity removes a lot of artifacts from the model caused by oscillation of the head when it makes sudden 90-degree direction changes - something that is readily visible in earlier units. Print speed is good, and I find I am using 0.1mm spacing quite a lot, and people who have seen my earlier prints on a Mini quite like the outcome.

I can print usable threads down to 40tpi - in fact, I'm doing one now.

The biggest problem with the UP300 is the Tiertime software. It's clearly aimed at people who make things that look "pretty" over working properly, but at 99% infill, by changing the extrusion width, I can get around some of the more serious bugs and print fairly solid parts that have excellent strength characteristics. This much is a very serious bug, as walls are not only thin, but often aren't attached to the infill at all, and there's no timeline on the software fix.

Also, the Tiertime software doesn't save settings, so you have to configure the print settings EVERY SINGLE TIME you enter the menu. Even switching menus will destroy your print settings, so if you set up to print, and then you go to heat the bed, then you have to set it up to print again from scratch because all of your settings have now vanished.

I have seen a thin wall option, and the walls are thinner on the UP300, but still not ideal or to my liking, and this seems the result of software problems in the Tiertime app rather than the printer's fault.

I had some serious issues with the print stopping and going to air, and after a LOT of work, figured out this was due to debris in the nozzle, which would have been there when Tiertime tested the print head, so consider removing the print head, and cleaning out the old plastic carefully with MEK before use ( soak for a few days and use mechanical agitation ) or just buy some new print heads when you order.

I'm still pretty happy with my purchase despite the problems, but I really wish Tiertime would develop an "Engineer" version of their software designed to work properly than to look like it's good onscreen. I can't see them fixing a lot of stuff when it goes against what appear to be their company goals of making the print as simple as possible when it works for many of their users, who value final appearance over other characteristics. I could be wrong there, but it really does feel like they try to dumb things down and have other priorities than engineers, which is a shame, because the artists are well taken care of, and it's the engineers who will find the features of the UP300 most useful and more suited to their applications. ( Please, Tiertime, Read the forums and take notes of our pain ! There are many threads detailing problems like walls not even touching the infill ! )

Speaking of walls not touching the infill, that's probably a good indicator of the quality of the prints. You can print a sheet 6" by 6" ( or bigger! ) and if printed on an axis where the wall-attach bug is present, you'll get a 0.4mm solid wall, without ANY attachment to the infill over the entire surface, and you can, with a little force, just peel it off. Sure, that sucks, but look at it from another perspective - The wall is not only strong, but the 0.1 or less gap to the infill is perfectly maintained over the entire structure ! That's accuracy and repeatability right there. And the surface is beautiful... I can see every triangle in my STL model perfectly, far more than ever before...

The only other problem is that the print head stops and cools from time to time, but this seems to be a bug. Tiertime is definitely working on that one because they've mentioned it from time to time.

So I can say that I'm still happy with the machine, though REALLY want the detaching wall problem fixed ASAP. It will be a problem if it stays forever, but I can even live without thick surface walls as long as I have good infill.

One really positive aspect of the UP300 is that they are VERY consistent from print to print. I have very few failed prints, mostly due to the raft not sticking ( waiting for it to heat up is a MUST for ABS ) and I find that failures such as losing their position are extremely rare... This is one of the reasons I stuck with Tiertime when upgrading from the Up MINI. I just print at home, BTW, and put 30 Kg of plastic through my Mini. It's still going, though is starting to fail from time to time - though only when starting up and not in a print.

Here's a picture of something I just printed. The threads are 32 tpi. 0.1 layers. This is a telescope eyepiece adapter.
IMG_20190311_092332.jpg
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pentrena
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:59 am

Re: How good is the UP300 ?

Post by pentrena » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:20 pm

cj7hawk wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:30 am
Another perspective here.

Most of the UP300 I ...
I subscribe your words. We were going to use these machines for our engineering clients. In that area, the software fails. What's more, today I've noticed that the print width modifies the size of the print. I have to do more tests of this aspect. The machine is very robust, but if I make a hole to screw a screw, and that this makes the thread, it breaks very easily.

cadcam
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon May 26, 2014 3:03 am

Re: How good is the UP300 ?

Post by cadcam » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:30 am

Interesting

The info re the thread is slightly worrying. We normally now encapsulate a tappex, or more cheaply, a nut to save issues with pullout. However we did some tests a few years ago with abs and abs+ printed on a UP Plus and were getting pull out strengths up to 20-50kgf for M4 with > 5mm engagement. I came across some of the test samples the otherday, I will try and find the results. What sort of forces are the threads breaking at? What is the orientation of pull out vs build layers? Are the threads being cut with a sharp or rounded tap?

Best Regards

pentrena
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:59 am

Re: How good is the UP300 ?

Post by pentrena » Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:20 pm

cadcam wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:30 am
Interesting

....

Best Regards
I will try to explain myself well. I do not speak English. I am Spanish and I use google traslator.

I have find several problems. The first and most important, is that I can not establish several perimeters or vertical walls. I can only change the print width. When I modify this width, the interior holes change dimensions just like the print width. Those 0.3 mm in holes adjusted for a screw to enter and as it progresses generate the thread, pose a problem. In addition the overlap of the contour with the filling is very poor, so it ends up breaking the hole. The truth is that the machine for decorative pieces is a marvel, but for engineering, it is very limited and with errors.

cj7hawk
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:52 am

Re: How good is the UP300 ?

Post by cj7hawk » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:43 am

I wouldn't want to tap these too much. Best results are from printing the threads and then wetting the threads slightly with MEK before installing a helicoil, and perhaps leaving a bolt in place to make sure that any excess melt doesn't affect the pitch of the helicoil.

This requires no afterprint works ( eg, drilling, tapping ) and will give optimal thread strength regardless of other print factors, though there are other factors still to consider.

I wrote my own AutoLISP for generating threads, which you're welcome to adapt if you use CAD that supports it. I just give it metric numbers and it makes the thread, including allowing for clearance and with internal and external profiles based on the ISO thread requirements.

I use CorelCAD myself, and the AutoLIST is optimised for that, but works somewhat on AutoCAD.

I've never tried the pull-out force as a measurement, but might sometime. I doubt I'd put out a M5.... Maybe a M4. I'll have to set up a test jig sometime. The thread I showed in the image is pretty good, and doesn't require any finishing. I just screw it in hand-tight, and pretty tight at that. Making the threads a little "tight" seems to be the key with printed ABS, and the threads loosen up a little with application.

David.

fastm3
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:33 am

Re: How good is the UP300 ?

Post by fastm3 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:13 pm

With the up300, you potentially could get excellent print at a very fast speed. Quality of print of my others M200 printers are really good. But I could get the same quality if not better two times quicker than the M200 on the up300. This is amazing.
But for complex/large parts, I don't have enough fine control and I can't produce 100% perfect print of these parts with the up300 where as it's possible on my other printers. A more powerfull heated bed would be welcome. Not having pwm fan control is weird also.
Getting clear feedback of temperatures for heated bed, hotend, enclosure will be more usefull that a percentage.
I have also the air printing problem sometimes. I've also a lot of issues with the raft separation I cannot fix currently.
The lack of support of gcode is currently the more important issue for me considering the problems/bugs of the upstudio software and it will probably solves most of the other issues. I bought it BECAUSE gcode support was on the specs sheet.
It is clear now for me that it won't happen soon or at best, it will be a partial support.
I've just seen the Tinyfab Open Source CPU on the tiertime shop. ( for tiertime cetus )
Official support of such a CPU for up300 will fully solve the gcode support problem ( at least for advanced users ) and it will make the up300 a wonderfull printer with very high speed , and still excellent print quality as the hardware is quite good. UpStudio is ok for very simple parts.
For small parts, bed adhesion of the first layer with or without raft was always successfull. This is excellent.
I'm now a little disappointed of my up300 ( considering pros and cons ) but also now quite excited as I probably could quickly have a very good and quick printer if I can get an opensource firmware working on it.

cadcam
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon May 26, 2014 3:03 am

Re: How good is the UP300 ?

Post by cadcam » Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:03 am

Thank you for the feedback. The pos/neg nature of the review is a little concerning to a potential purchaser looking at spending 2000+ukp.
The real hope would be that at the price the printing of all models, provided they fit the largish bed, should be be very solid/ no (very little) separation etc. Reading the various reports etc is seems as if some smallish things like not enough power on the bed and limited control of the enclosure temp may be issues. Are TT interacting with the users (collecting difficult/test .stls etc) to give advice, or promise minor improvements? Or is there a more significant issue with total heat in the enclosure resulting in secondary problems with cpu, motors, lubrication?

A positive benefit of UP/Tiertime offerings is that the 'out of the box' slicer will produce a (very) good finish and easily removable support, when it works.
The software has always restricted the user but studio, + gcode import seemed to give the more advanced user the hope/option to experiment. [Ideally with the ability to share operating conditions with other users to include in a simply accessible altenative to the standard setups. We find it useful on other machine to have standard set ups for gears, racks, long tubes .... easily selectable by students]
The difficulties users are having with the Gcode extension and the fact that Tiertime are selling alternative hardware on one of their machines to run gcode doesn't add confidence.

Is it likely that Tiertime will give users the option of buying the machines (cetus/Up300/X5) with TTcpu+studio or Tinyfab cpu + pre configured alternative slicer**? If yes will there be a price difference?


Best Wishes

cj7hawk
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:52 am

Re: How good is the UP300 ?

Post by cj7hawk » Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:00 pm

Hi Cadcam,

While the major bugs and a lack of acknowledgement of them by Tiertime, is a bit off-putting, it's also worth considering that these printers are still, even now, fairly new and have only just received their second firmware update from Tiertime.

It's rare that early adopters don't have some issues with whatever they get - it's the price paid for early adoption and the benefits are that you get the next level of technology for which all the new capabilities are being developed.

I'm sure Tiertime coud probably get additional pre-bug-fix sales if they acknowledged the bugs and gave a timeline, or at least details on when they are hoping to address the issue, but for the moment, at least we know they have a track records of putting out revisions. :)

David.

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