Problem with 0.1mm prints

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msmithers
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Problem with 0.1mm prints

Post by msmithers » Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:19 pm

We've been working with the Up Box for a few weeks now and love it.

One very annoying problem is that 0.1mm prints with flat surfaces stick to the raft. It's impossible to release the print from the raft (after 1st removing both from the plate) without destroying the bottom of the print.

We don't have this problem with 0.15mm prints on the Up Box nor on our Up Plus.

If the software engineers are reading this, can you please update the Up software to expose the parameter that controls the distance between the raft and the 1st print layer? (Other programs like Simplify3D do expose this but Up printers only talk to the Up software.) Could you also spend some time experimenting with 0.1mm prints and fixing the Up software's default behaviour?

We raised this problem with the Australian distributor and they suggested posting on this forum. (They would not give us direct manufacturer support contact details.)

Thanks,

mr6k
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Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:47 am

Re: Problem with 0.1mm prints

Post by mr6k » Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:58 am

You could try printing raftless onto A layer of Kapton tape. If you have not used this before, here are my suggestions.
Stick Kapton tape to baseplate.
using acetone or MEK, thoroughly clean the kapton tape surface to remove any release chemical surficant that the manufactuter applied to the roll.
dissolve a small amount of ABS in MEK or acetone
using acloth wipe this mixture over the tape surface, this should fotm only avery fine film, just enough to dull the look of the tape surface.
Print onto this surface.
The model should release fairly easyily and will have a very fine surface.
I assume you are printing ABS and have a flat base plate onto which to stick the Kapton. It may work as well on perfboard, but I have never tried that.
cheers

Peter

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Tiertime-Jason
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Re: Problem with 0.1mm prints

Post by Tiertime-Jason » Wed Jun 24, 2015 8:15 am

As layer adhesion between 0.1mm layers is not as strong as the thicker layers, so it is better to avoid using 0.1mm for prints with large flat bottom surface.
We are working on this issue and will probably fix it in the coming software updates.
Thanks for reporting this.

TCD_AU
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Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2015 2:44 am

Re: Problem with 0.1mm prints

Post by TCD_AU » Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:00 am

Hi Jason,

While we have you here and talking about software. Any chance of having an option for 'parallel projected' view, rather than only perspective. When lining up multiple parts, or rotating to align to the build plate it is difficult
to see if it is perfectly parallel to the bed without tediously manipulating the view window. It is my ONLY issue with the UP! software.

I will be buying a BOX asap, and I feel that this annoyance will only be worse as I plan on printing lots of parts per print job. Not a deal breaker but would be amazing.

Tim
fb.com/timcourtlanddesign

Expert user of 1x UP! Plus, 2x UP! Plus 2 & UP! Mini.

Can't wait for UP! Box. Tiertime, take my money! :)

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Tiertime-Jason
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Re: Problem with 0.1mm prints

Post by Tiertime-Jason » Tue Jul 07, 2015 2:22 am

Hi Tim,

sorry for the late reply.
The software could not provide projected view right now.
For lining up parts, you can first autoplace and the hold ctrl key and drag the model with left mouse key.
Models are usually loaded in orientations that same as or perpendicular to how they are exported. You may re-export your model instead of adjusting in UP software.

pp3dp.nl
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Location: Holland/The Netherlands

Re: Problem with 0.1mm prints

Post by pp3dp.nl » Sun Jul 26, 2015 12:08 pm

In relation to the 0.1 mm layer adhesion problems is posted this also in the other Up Box section. I hope Jason Is reading along and could also help us with the layer setting for raft support: please enable 2 to 6 layers again because now only 2 or 3 work.

''I am very happy with my Up Box, I have already produced great results with it. Raft removal is often good but it can certainly be better. It varies with layer thickness and even color of ABS (original TierTime). I sometimes have one corner that will not remove and take a part of my model.. :!: It helps if the nozzle starts with the model at the opposite area of where the raft just finished. :!:

The one thing I would really like control over is what already is in the software: the settings for support layers (and part layers). This can help a lot with raft removal, the thicker the raft (you want that for large flat models) the easier the removal.

Version 1.15 from years ago was the last version that actually uses the number of support layers you want to, 2 to 6! Since 1.16 you can only get 2 or 3, no more: choose 4, 5 or 6 - only 3 layers will be printed.

In the case of 0.1 mm layers for your model this means a very very thin support raft.

So I would like that option to work again! I hope the software techs are reading here or somebody that wants the software to get better. :!: So please make the ''Support Dense'' work with 2 to 6 layers again. :!:''

pp3dp.nl
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Re: Problem with 0.1mm prints

Post by pp3dp.nl » Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:37 am

I added a picture to further clearify the support settings I mean that don't work. It would really be beneficial if these settings are repaired by TierTime/PP3DP..

As stated before, support dense only works up to 3 layers: 4, 5 and 6 also prints only 3 layers on the raft. Six layers would really help for 0.1 mm layer models, support would be thicker and easier to remove!
SupportLayers.jpg
SupportLayers.jpg (86.13 KiB) Viewed 13715 times

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Tiertime-Jason
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Re: Problem with 0.1mm prints

Post by Tiertime-Jason » Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:55 am

Hi,

I will try to see if can reproduce the bug, if yes I will inform the development team.
Is this just happen when printing with 0.1mm or all settings?

Regards,

Jason

pp3dp.nl
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Re: Problem with 0.1mm prints

Post by pp3dp.nl » Fri Aug 07, 2015 7:05 pm

Hi Jason,

No this happens with all Up machines and on all layer heights. It has been this way since software version 1.16 (several years). Software version 1.15 was the last version where the dense setting worked for 4, 5 and 6 layers. But that also had a thicker raft: you could choose a minimum of 2 mm for the raft base under the support layers.

It's just now with 0.1 mm layers it's extra hard to get a raft off when it is so thin.

Thanks for looking into this, it's very much appreciated!

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Tiertime-Jason
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Re: Problem with 0.1mm prints

Post by Tiertime-Jason » Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:00 am

Hi,

After trying the Dense setting, I found no problem with the printing parameter. The dense layers could be printed up to 6 layers.
I think may be there is some misconception about the dense setting. It actually governmet the number of thick layers between support structure and supported surfaces in Z axis.
However the setting cannot change the thickness of the raft, the raft thickness is fixed and cannot be changed in current software.

pp3dp.nl
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Re: Problem with 0.1mm prints

Post by pp3dp.nl » Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:23 am

I know the thickness of the raft is the same, but I have not seen more than 3 layers dense support printed since version 1.15.. On multiple Up Plus's, the Up Box and Mini.

What configuration did you use? I only ever used Windows Up software, maybe you used Mac? If so, could you please check the Windows version for us?

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Tiertime-Jason
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Re: Problem with 0.1mm prints

Post by Tiertime-Jason » Mon Aug 17, 2015 8:07 am

here is a test print made by UP BOX, printed with UP Software 2.15 windows version.
You can see the 6 dense layers.
IMG_2711.JPG
IMG_2711.JPG (305.2 KiB) Viewed 13504 times

pp3dp.nl
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Re: Problem with 0.1mm prints

Post by pp3dp.nl » Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:28 pm

Thanks Jason for test printing. I can't see it clearly (the bottom support in the raft) but I think we have a misunderstanding: the dense setting used to make a thicker raft under the model. I can see 6 layers in the support (higher up in the model) but I think the bottom one is only 3, see picture. It would be great if that also works with the dense setting because straight under the model or higher up would have the same benefits: thicker support that is easier to remove.
file.php.jpg
file.php.jpg (106.01 KiB) Viewed 13482 times

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Tiertime-Jason
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Re: Problem with 0.1mm prints

Post by Tiertime-Jason » Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:35 am

I see what you mean. However increasing the thickness of that part may cause large flat parts more likely to warp and detach from the raft.
The easiness of raft detachment, base on my experience, is mainly governed by the nozzle height.

pp3dp.nl
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Re: Problem with 0.1mm prints

Post by pp3dp.nl » Tue Aug 18, 2015 7:41 am

Hi Jason, but that would also be the case for the support higher up. It would be more logical to use both the same settings as it means the support directly under the model. And if you select 3 layers the problem ypu described is gone or at least the same as now. The option to choose is key and good for the users..

In my opinion the support removal benefits from the thicker raft. If you could try the old version 1.15 (for instance with PLA) you can see what I mean: far easier support removal. Right now I have trouble removing support from large objects on my Up Box, the bottom always has some spots where support is stuck.

pp3dp.nl
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Re: Problem with 0.1mm prints

Post by pp3dp.nl » Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:22 am

Here is more info about the printing parameters from the Up Box manual. It explains a lot about support and more and confirms what Jason said.

Nevertheless I would like the option to select more raft support layers, the red area in the picture. The latest software version 2.17 did produce better removable rafts for a few parts I printed but sometimes I would like the raft a bit heavier, especially for small models printed at 0.1 or 0.15 mm layers :D
PrintingParameters.JPG
PrintingParameters.JPG (33.37 KiB) Viewed 13363 times

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