Creating removable rafts/supports

Support for UP BOX and UP BOX+. To report a bug, post with a title [BUG REPORT]. To request a feature, post with a title [FEATURE REQUEST]
titaniumapple
Posts: 56
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 6:49 am

Creating removable rafts/supports

Post by titaniumapple » Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:27 am

Hi all,

I received an Up Box 2 weeks ago. I sorted out some teething problems such as 'air prints' and making sure the platform was heated before I removed prints. After that, the prints printed really well.

The problem not being the quality of the prints but the fact I had to spend the NEXT 2 DAYS with a set of pliers and a scalpel (slicing off the top of my finger in the process!) trying to remove the rafts which support the model when it's flat or nearly flat. They literally stick to the print with barely any distinguishable difference between the raft and the model. I've have printed at .1mm and .15mm and both are bad. It's especially bad when it's printing horizontal/flat parts of the model. It doesn't come away with the hand, a screwdriver or a scalpel until I keep carving away plastic. At times it feels like I'm sculpting out of lump of ABS!

This is especially a problem when it comes to trying to create moving, mechanical parts, something I bought the Up Box especially for. Trying to carve off rafts/supports which are in awkward-to-reach places. It barely makes it worth using the printer when it's like this, I'm not saving any time over 3D printing services and they come out perfectly with no support removal.

Is it a software thing? A settings thing?

I appreciate your help!

Thanks,

Adam

steelmans
Posts: 100
Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2015 10:18 am

Re: Creating removable rafts/supports

Post by steelmans » Mon Oct 05, 2015 1:39 pm

I feel your pain. At the moment only 0.2 layer height separates well on my Up Box.

pp3dp.nl
Posts: 252
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:18 pm
Location: Holland/The Netherlands

Re: Creating removable rafts/supports

Post by pp3dp.nl » Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:04 pm

I also had this a few times.. It does help to calibrate the table well, first manually make it as level as possible and then automatic. I also had variable results with different colors, I think white original ABS has best removable support. It is important to use OEM filament with these high temps.

So try to calibrate and see if that helps..

titaniumapple
Posts: 56
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 6:49 am

Re: Creating removable rafts/supports

Post by titaniumapple » Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:40 pm

Thanks, yes I've only used OEM White ABS material. Only used Automatic table calibration, don't want to mess it up manually.

I mean, the reason I bought it was because of the high res - don't offer 0.1mm resolution if you can't remove the supports easily!

Any chance of a firmware/software fix? Is it even possible? What are other single-extruder 3D printers like at 0.1mm, are their supports easily removed?

I'm considering rotating the 3D model so it doesn't have many horizontal surfaces, because they're by far the worst culprits.

Protolink3d
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:33 pm

Re: Creating removable rafts/supports

Post by Protolink3d » Sun Oct 18, 2015 7:14 am

I have the same problem and talking to some other Up experts I am told it is a software issue. I think Tiertime should investigate this and come up with a solution because I do prints for clients and at the moment 0.1mm is off the table for me. The few times I had no choice but to print 0.1mm it was a pain in the @#$ to remove the support.

Can we ask Tiertime to give their input here please ? Is something on the cards with a firmware upgrade to solve this problem ?

steelmans
Posts: 100
Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2015 10:18 am

Re: Creating removable rafts/supports

Post by steelmans » Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:32 am

I have been told that they will be releasing a new version of the software and this problem will be resolved with that. Would be great to know when though!

titaniumapple
Posts: 56
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 6:49 am

Re: Creating removable rafts/supports

Post by titaniumapple » Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:29 pm

steelmans wrote:I have been told that they will be releasing a new version of the software and this problem will be resolved with that. Would be great to know when though!
Interesting, if it's just a software issue and it gets fixed with a software update soon then I'll be happy! And I won't need to trade mine in for an Ultimaker 3 when it comes out!

furnibird
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2015 2:23 pm

Re: Creating removable rafts/supports

Post by furnibird » Fri Oct 23, 2015 9:33 am

I had the same issue then tried a sheet of buildtak and never looked back. Turns the up box into an even better machine. Just add a 2 or 3 layer brim if supports are needed. No raft needed.

steelmans
Posts: 100
Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2015 10:18 am

Re: Creating removable rafts/supports

Post by steelmans » Sat Oct 24, 2015 2:17 pm

furnibird wrote:I had the same issue then tried a sheet of buildtak and never looked back. Turns the up box into an even better machine. Just add a 2 or 3 layer brim if supports are needed. No raft needed.
I tried buildtak on top of the perfboard but really struggle to remove the model. What's the trick?

furnibird
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2015 2:23 pm

Re: Creating removable rafts/supports

Post by furnibird » Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:12 am

Really mine come off fine. I just use the scrapper under one edge and slowly pry it up. Mostly they come off with just one pop. This is with no raft and i try never to use supports.

titaniumapple
Posts: 56
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 6:49 am

Re: Creating removable rafts/supports

Post by titaniumapple » Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:50 am

furnibird wrote:Really mine come off fine. I just use the scrapper under one edge and slowly pry it up. Mostly they come off with just one pop. This is with no raft and i try never to use supports.
Out of interest, how do you print with no raft/supports if the model has overhanging parts? Or flat surfaces with nothing underneath? Or do you change the design of the 3D model so none are needed?

furnibird
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2015 2:23 pm

Re: Creating removable rafts/supports

Post by furnibird » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:16 am

I try not use files that have them. But Supports within the model are ok but if the supports are on first layer i add a brim to the model for the supports to print on. The up software really needs to add the g code for support to be visible.

Protolink3d
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:33 pm

Re: Creating removable rafts/supports

Post by Protolink3d » Sat Oct 31, 2015 9:22 am

When you are printing for clients there is no getting away from support material. I unfortunately do not have the luxury of telling my clients, I can't print their models because it requires support. I just avoid printing in 0.1mm altogether unless absolutely necessary and a client demands it. In any case 99% of the time nobody will see the difference between a print at 0.1mm vs 0.15mm. At 0.15mm I have no problems at all. Support material peels off and cleans easy.

So except for 0.1mm prints. If you really having issues with support material, and you sure your settings are correct, you can use Meshmixer or some such program to generate supports for you and export that as a new stl file. I have done that successfully with large PLA prints on my Wanhao D5s.

Having said all that, there is an issue with 0.1mm and I for one would like to see it resolved.

titaniumapple
Posts: 56
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 6:49 am

Re: Creating removable rafts/supports

Post by titaniumapple » Sat Oct 31, 2015 6:57 pm

Protolink3d wrote:When you are printing for clients there is no getting away from support material. I unfortunately do not have the luxury of telling my clients, I can't print their models because it requires support. I just avoid printing in 0.1mm altogether unless absolutely necessary and a client demands it. In any case 99% of the time nobody will see the difference between a print at 0.1mm vs 0.15mm. At 0.15mm I have no problems at all. Support material peels off and cleans easy.

So except for 0.1mm prints. If you really having issues with support material, and you sure your settings are correct, you can use Meshmixer or some such program to generate supports for you and export that as a new stl file. I have done that successfully with large PLA prints on my Wanhao D5s.

Having said all that, there is an issue with 0.1mm and I for one would like to see it resolved.
Thanks guys, useful info.

For me it's internal supports that cause the most frustration, because they need to work mechanically but are extremely hard to access, rip off/remove and sand down.

pp3dp.nl
Posts: 252
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:18 pm
Location: Holland/The Netherlands

Re: Creating removable rafts/supports

Post by pp3dp.nl » Sat Oct 31, 2015 9:57 pm

I did some more testing and I really have great results by only calibrating manually, so make sure to reset/delete all values under ''3D Print/Platform Calibrate'' and turn the 3 knobs under the platform until it is leveled.

Rafts come off easier for me now with various layer thicknesses, if more people can try this and report back it would be helpful!

titaniumapple
Posts: 56
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 6:49 am

Re: Creating removable rafts/supports

Post by titaniumapple » Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:45 pm

pp3dp.nl wrote:I did some more testing and I really have great results by only calibrating manually, so make sure to reset/delete all values under ''3D Print/Platform Calibrate'' and turn the 3 knobs under the platform until it is leveled.

Rafts come off easier for me now with various layer thicknesses, if more people can try this and report back it would be helpful!
Ok thanks when I get a chance I'll try manual calibration - although I bought the printer because of the Auto Calibration (compared to Ultimaker 2 manual calibration) so I hope it gets fixed soon!

User avatar
Tiertime-Jason
Posts: 286
Joined: Mon May 05, 2014 4:31 am

Re: Creating removable rafts/supports

Post by Tiertime-Jason » Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:11 am

Sometimes the auto calibration's result is not 100% satisfactory, you may need to optimize the nozzle height value by adjusting it in + or - 0.1-0.2mm steps.
Usually, after auto leveling and nozzle detection, I use a small object like a 2x2cm cube print in shell mode to test the nozzle height before committee to the real print.
The raft separation could be too loose that the object warp and pop off from raft or even the raft itself could come off, in this case you may increase the nozzle height at the print confirmation window where you can adjust manually. In opposite if the raft sticking too well, decrease the nozzle height value and see what happens.

titaniumapple
Posts: 56
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 6:49 am

Re: Creating removable rafts/supports

Post by titaniumapple » Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:47 pm

Tiertime-Jason wrote:Sometimes the auto calibration's result is not 100% satisfactory, you may need to optimize the nozzle height value by adjusting it in + or - 0.1-0.2mm steps.
Usually, after auto leveling and nozzle detection, I use a small object like a 2x2cm cube print in shell mode to test the nozzle height before committee to the real print.
The raft separation could be too loose that the object warp and pop off from raft or even the raft itself could come off, in this case you may increase the nozzle height at the print confirmation window where you can adjust manually. In opposite if the raft sticking too well, decrease the nozzle height value and see what happens.
Ok thanks, so you do you have to put a piece of paper on the print board and touch the nozzle to the paper, or does the nozzle have to directly touch the print board?

User avatar
Tiertime-Jason
Posts: 286
Joined: Mon May 05, 2014 4:31 am

Re: Creating removable rafts/supports

Post by Tiertime-Jason » Tue Nov 03, 2015 1:29 am

Hello,

you can use a piece of paper as a guide to adjust the nozzle height, just as described in user manual.
From my experience the auto leveling is very reliable, my way of doing manual leveling:
1. after autoleveling go to platform calibrate panel, find out the highest point, usually the point with 0 compensation value.
2. move the print head to the highest point by click the numbered button.
3. move the print head upward until the nozzle almost reach platform, the gap should be about 0.2mm, could use a paper for guidance, some prefer farther for easier cleaning (but more warpping).

somehow the raft separation is dependent on the nozzle height value but may not be simple linear relationship, and best raft separation force is also a personal preference, so test prints are recommended in order to achieve the most suitable "feel" for yourself.

User avatar
Tiertime-Jason
Posts: 286
Joined: Mon May 05, 2014 4:31 am

Re: Creating removable rafts/supports

Post by Tiertime-Jason » Tue Nov 03, 2015 1:29 am

Hello,

you can use a piece of paper as a guide to adjust the nozzle height, just as described in user manual.
From my experience the auto leveling is very reliable, my way of doing manual leveling:
1. after autoleveling go to platform calibrate panel, find out the highest point, usually the point with 0 compensation value.
2. move the print head to the highest point by click the numbered button.
3. move the print head upward until the nozzle almost reach platform, the gap should be about 0.2mm, could use a paper for guidance, some prefer farther for easier cleaning (but more warpping).

somehow the raft separation is dependent on the nozzle height value but may not be simple linear relationship, and best raft separation force is also a personal preference, so test prints are recommended in order to achieve the most suitable "feel" for yourself.

Post Reply