Warping or bad settings/hardware problem?

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Chris.e
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Warping or bad settings/hardware problem?

Post by Chris.e » Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:12 pm

I printed a large thing (around 115 by 97mm and around 20mm high) and it got strange. It leaned towards one direction vertically. So is there something wrong with the printer or do I just have the "normal" warp problem? I´m not sure what warping looks like, I´ve only seen it lifting the part up from the bed in the corners, but this print is skewed. It is printed laying down.
Photos:
Image

Image

Image


Any ideas?

cyberbadger
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Re: Warping or bad settings/hardware problem?

Post by cyberbadger » Tue Oct 19, 2010 2:09 am

Chris.e,

Look at Whyslers print of the wood relief.

The new software calibration probably helps a bit..

However the UP! has limitations based on it's design - the larger the model the more subject to warping. - It is a temperature differential problem....

-cyberbadger

trebuchet03
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Re: Warping or bad settings/hardware problem?

Post by trebuchet03 » Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:27 am

Did it skew? That is to say - is it still quadrilateral? <-- that would require one side to be sucked inwards (like your first image) and the other to be overhanging. If that's the case, there's translation error (the head wan't starting exactly over the same spot each time) - warp would require material to "pull" it in the direction of other material (warp due to shrinkage).
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Chris.e
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Re: Warping or bad settings/hardware problem?

Post by Chris.e » Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:12 am

It is printed as it lays in photo nr 2. I´m not sure how you mean with quadrilateral, it is as you have a frame with hinges in the corners and slightly moves one side. I´m not native in english so it´s hard to describe this but I hope you´ll understand :)

-soapy-
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Re: Warping or bad settings/hardware problem?

Post by -soapy- » Tue Oct 19, 2010 2:59 pm

Looking carefully at it, it seems the X and Y axes aren't at 90 degrees to each other, by a little bit. When the head translates (moves) a long way, it shows up as a small error, and you then find that parts are correct on the screen and correct on the model, but slightly out on the actual print. If you turn it around 90 degrees and print it, you'll get exactly the same error in exactly the same fashion.

Since my machine hasn't arrived yet, I've no idea if you can adjust this, but since you've got a good steel square, you can probably tweak any adjustment so it is spot on quite easily.

TTT험ทดสอบ
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Re: Warping or bad settings/hardware problem?

Post by TTT험ทดสอบ » Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:32 pm

Hi,
Please download UP! V1.08, and use the calibrate function( in 3D Print menu).

View the thread http://www.pp3dp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=114

Darkhouse

Chris.e
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Re: Warping or bad settings/hardware problem?

Post by Chris.e » Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:48 pm

It looks like my x and y axis isn't 90 degrees to each other. It might have happened when it was struggling to move after the ball bearing broke. It looks like the sheet metal holding in the platform sledge has bent some. Should I try to bend it back and then calibrate the printer?

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Re: Warping or bad settings/hardware problem?

Post by Chris.e » Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:53 pm

darkhouse, I did a calibration before printing these. Although there´s no indication that the calibration values stuck to the printer, if I open the calibration setup now I still see the default values.

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josejuako
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Re: Warping or bad settings/hardware problem?

Post by josejuako » Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:28 pm

Hey I say the same like you when I do my first print. And this are in the X and Y axes but in Z too.
I dont have time to do the calibrate option , but when I´ll have y tell you my friend.
But I like to see your photos , for engineering or architects is very bad .
I will work to use the new software to calibrate my machine .
And temperature is not the problem is the algorithms for the stepper motors , speed and X and Y travel.


J
.
:!: :?:

airborn2
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Re: Warping or bad settings/hardware problem?

Post by airborn2 » Mon Nov 01, 2010 1:08 am

Hi Everyone -

I have a warping problem as well...sorry for the poor photo, but as you see, the part is long, about 135mm so I placed it
diagonally. About halfway through the print I went back to check the part, and it is warping up at both ends very badly
and because of this is squashed and deformed.
Might this be a problem with the adhesive that you are supposed to brush on the plate? How often do you do that, and
how do you clean off the existing residue to get a nice new even layer. It almost looks like it isn't sticking at the ends.

Any help would be most appreciated.

Ken
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-soapy-
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Re: Warping or bad settings/hardware problem?

Post by -soapy- » Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:51 pm

135mm is really beyond the ability of the printer! Heck, that's bigger than the platform!

Give the veroboard solution a try, would be my best suggestion, as the blue tape isn't going to help here, I think.

trebuchet03
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Re: Warping or bad settings/hardware problem?

Post by trebuchet03 » Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:01 pm

-soapy- wrote:135mm is really beyond the ability of the printer! Heck, that's bigger than the platform!

Give the veroboard solution a try, would be my best suggestion, as the blue tape isn't going to help here, I think.
?? My platform is 140mm square :p

He also placed it diagonally ;)

Theoretical:
Maximum 2D diagonal length is 198mm
Maximum 3D diagonal length is just shy of 240mm (almost 9.44 inches!)
^^ Both of those values are for a zero thickness line. Adding thickness decreases theoretical max line length
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-soapy-
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Re: Warping or bad settings/hardware problem?

Post by -soapy- » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:40 pm

trebuchet03 wrote:
-soapy- wrote:135mm is really beyond the ability of the printer! Heck, that's bigger than the platform!

Give the veroboard solution a try, would be my best suggestion, as the blue tape isn't going to help here, I think.
?? My platform is 140mm square :p

He also placed it diagonally ;)

Theoretical:
Maximum 2D diagonal length is 198mm
Maximum 3D diagonal length is just shy of 240mm (almost 9.44 inches!)
^^ Both of those values are for a zero thickness line. Adding thickness decreases theoretical max line length
And where's the raft going to go? It projects ~5mm beyond the end of the part, so really, you can only expect to print a 130mm part on a 140mm platform. Unless you put it at an angle. (I'd love to see someone waste half a pound of material drawing a 1mm thick line 240mm long, just to prove it can be done!!)

Anyway, I still think trying to do a part the full length of the platform is unreasonable unless you are prepared to tune it.

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Re: Warping or bad settings/hardware problem?

Post by trebuchet03 » Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:51 am

-soapy- wrote:It projects ~5mm beyond the end of the part, so really, you can only expect to print a 130mm part on a 140mm platform. Unless you put it at an angle.
airborn2 wrote:the part is long, about 135mm so I placed it
diagonally.
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Tiertime-Edward
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Re: Warping or bad settings/hardware problem?

Post by Tiertime-Edward » Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:45 am

Hi Ken,

You are printing a very big model, it will quite probably warp. Please follows this link to see more ideas when you print a big model. http://www.pp3dp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=96

When you want to remove the platform adhesives, put the platform into water for one hour, then it will be quite easy to remove the adhesive.

Edward

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Re: Warping or bad settings/hardware problem?

Post by -soapy- » Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:52 am

trebuchet03 wrote:
-soapy- wrote:It projects ~5mm beyond the end of the part, so really, you can only expect to print a 130mm part on a 140mm platform. Unless you put it at an angle.
airborn2 wrote:the part is long, about 135mm so I placed it
diagonally.
Yes, but that's my point - it's unfair to expect a machine to print something out the box that is bigger than the platform size!

A bit like your car probably has a speedo that goes to 140MPH, but you'll never get it above 110, even downhill with the wind behind you. It's just cheaper to buy the same speedo and put it in all the cars in the range. ;-)

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Re: Warping or bad settings/hardware problem?

Post by Madox » Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:31 pm

-soapy- wrote:
trebuchet03 wrote:
airborn2 wrote:the part is long, about 135mm so I placed it
diagonally.
Yes, but that's my point - it's unfair to expect a machine to print something out the box that is bigger than the platform size!

A bit like your car probably has a speedo that goes to 140MPH, but you'll never get it above 110, even downhill with the wind behind you. It's just cheaper to buy the same speedo and put it in all the cars in the range. ;-)
I think you're missing the diagonal point...

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Re: Warping or bad settings/hardware problem?

Post by -soapy- » Sat Dec 11, 2010 9:04 pm

Not at all!

I get that you can manage to fit a 135mm long part onto the printer, but, as I say, just because the software will let you do that, you shouldn't expect it to work flawlessly.

Back to the topic (I know, how unlike me!) but I sorted my printer this evening.

I stripped it down a bit, took the platform off, then the heater and thermocouple, then the top cover plate for the X/Y axis. I took the two parts and tested them, and they seemed not to be working fully. I traced the wire and unplugged the cable at the sort of double plug.

Disconnecting the sensor and heater gave a reading of 358.6 degrees on the platform heat (Maintain) screen. It also sort of crashed the nozzle temp reading, setting it to 7.6 or 8.0 degrees (above the actual temperature of about 3 degrees), regardless of what I did, and it also refused to pre-heat or extrude. I then reseated it, and I found that it suddenly worked! Now, the preheat function works properly! So the software clearly is smart enough to know when the heater is working properly (and this also means that I've been printing without platform heat this last week!) as it updates it in the Maintain screen now, which it never really did before.

So it seems the re-install success was random, and it was a hardware fault, and a pretty trivial one at that.

trebuchet03
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Re: Warping or bad settings/hardware problem?

Post by trebuchet03 » Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:22 pm

Soapy, pardon the language but, fucking awesome!

I had a sneaking suspicion it was hardware - you can bang your head on this sort of problem, when presented with wire or software - we generally expect the wire is fine and the software is screwy :p

Hopefully, very few have this error - and hopefully, the few with this error have the same easy solution.

If lots of people have this error - Up! guys, you should probably look into better connectors. Crappy ones are cheap. Even good ones are cheap. :)

-soapy- wrote:I get that you can manage to fit a 135mm long part onto the printer, but, as I say, just because the software will let you do that, you shouldn't expect it to work flawlessly.
If I can fit something in the build envelope, I expect it to print (I used to do this all the time with a Dimension machine - an old 3DS SLA machine too) :p If I have a large part that has a curve length >135mm, why shouldn't it print? The machine is Cartesian, but we control the axes from which tool paths are generated - the machine could care less about the shape so long as the path falls within bounds.
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bashidap
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Re: Warping or bad settings/hardware problem?

Post by bashidap » Sun Dec 12, 2010 2:00 pm

It is true that the Up is not constructed very right-angled!

Look at these pictures.

I haven't noticed that my products aren't right-angled thou!
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