Page 2 of 2

Re: Printing at lower temps for aftermarket ABS

Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:09 am
by eyUP
People don't want to buy into closed systems, especially in a young and changing field
I agree, however I can see their point of view as well - when I think back to my experiences with the black art of open-source RepRap machines and software compared to the UP! I know which one I prefer...the UP! just works and doesn't give me hours of hassle with setup, re-setup, tweaking and modding.
At the end of the day that's what they sell, they know it works. If end users decide to upgrade bits of it to run other materials then everyone's a winner :)

Re: Printing at lower temps for aftermarket ABS

Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:19 pm
by jspark
There is great resistance (no pun intended) from DM to add any options to allow other filaments.
Personally I don't think it will ever happen - they have a product that works, it's reliable and has very few warranty issues - why would they open the machine to "abuse" from untested materials ? I know someone who brought in some grass-strimmer filament from home and ran that through an extruder - he had no idea what it was made of and it made a real mess of the machine :lol:
Hi. eyUP!
I don't think so like that.
If they REALLY want UP users use only the official filament for reliable issues, they would have to supply that lower price than aftermarket ABS's prices for the UP Printer owners.
But now, the UP Plus printer owners have to use the MOST EXPENSIVE filaments.
What is that mean?
I feel like they are going to go away to the opposite direction and I felt betrayed by them.
That's all !
Have a nice day!

Re: Printing at lower temps for aftermarket ABS

Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:22 pm
by goopyplastic
I think several things are true

1) the up! oem filament is generally considered the highest quality filament, low odor, low contaminants etc.. so you should expect a premium over garbage abs.

2) the up! seems to be more for people that want a trouble free experience, perfboards are a bit of a hassle, rafts and support material are a little wasteful etc. but it just *works*

If you comb the reprap forums etc... using one of those machines seems like a complete nightmare. I am at the point in my life where my sanity and hours of my time are worth more than trying to save a dollar on filament and dealing with the fallout. There is also drews feeder mechanism for those that want to stray outside and use aftermarket filament.

Re: Printing at lower temps for aftermarket ABS

Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:47 pm
by jspark
Hi! goopyplastic!

Thanks for your comment.

I well know what you said and agree with some your opinion.

That's true the OEM filaments optimized UP Plus Printer on the fixed working temperature.

But I think as follows.

1) highest quality filament. -> That's true there's no popping but the garbage abs also no popping on lower temp.
2) low odor, low contaminants --> The garbage abs also low odor, low contaminants on lower temp.
3) In my testing with the garbage abs, I can get relatively affordable results at the low working tempearture with my UP.
4) "OEM filament = garbage abs" on affordable working temperatures at each materials. <-- I'd like to believe this is not true.

I just want my UP can change the working temperature.
And I'd like to say to the UP developers .. "Please do not kill the flexibility of great UP Printer!"

That's all I want!

Re: Printing at lower temps for aftermarket ABS

Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:51 pm
by JuliaDee
It's really unfair to lump all 3rd-party filaments as "garbage". I've had some spectacularly good results with Octave ABS. Maybe it's a matter of getting the airflow from the fan duct right. Have a look at this:

http://www.thingiverse.com/derivative:36696

printed in Octave fluorescent green. It's damn near perfect, and it's far from the only print I've produced of that quality.

And I've never noticed any excessive odor from any 3rd-party filament I've used. Nor have I found the Up! official ABS (I've only tried white) to be any better. Maybe they control diameter better and there are fewer feed problems due to that and a higher melt point, I don't know.

julia

Re: Printing at lower temps for aftermarket ABS

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:06 am
by josejuako
From the beginning I asked colored materials nothing ever happened, I have also asked about the temperature control, I have tried almost all materials market and is therefore required temperature control is more important than the material of UP, I really think that the important thing is the machine and it would be more interesting materials business .

We will always find materials offer near you, wish you could have UP material at a reasonable cost and the machine with all the improvements here unsolicited and affordable as this at this time.

Re: Printing at lower temps for aftermarket ABS

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:06 am
by goopyplastic
I must apologize, I didn't make much of a distinction when I said garbage ABS. What I meant was if you are looking for the cheapest of the cheap ABS you can get some real garbage, I have seen threads where the filament had small ball bearings embedded in it and caused repeated nozzle clogging :shock: I do think that good quality ABS like that offered by Octave should be an option and that pp3dp should offer some fine tuning for those that are interested in doing it ... just more saying some of the ABS out there is not going to be worth the trouble :)

I purchased some Octave ABS myself and look forward to trying it out as it looks to be very good quality, some have reviewed it before as being the closest to oem and at almost half the price it seems like a no brainer to try :D

Re: Printing at lower temps for aftermarket ABS

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:49 pm
by JuliaDee
One thing I've noticed is that darker colors show the imperfections of the FDM process much more than lighter ones. This may not have anything to do at all with the formulation of the filaments; it's a function of lighting, optics, and human vision. I printed the same sculpture twice at the same settings - once in light fluorescent green and once in a navy blue. When the blue one was done I was like "wow, this filament is lousy, look at all those step marks and swirls etc." Then I looked really closely at the green one and saw that it has the exact same surface as the blue one, it's just that the imperfections don't show to the eye on casual viewing. It's too bad, because I need to print in black for a lot of work stuff and it's the worst case. But I can't help but wonder if all the praise for the OEM filament is at least partially because the vast majority of users have only ever tried it in white.

Re: Printing at lower temps for aftermarket ABS

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:53 pm
by JuliaDee
goopyplastic wrote:I have seen threads where the filament had small ball bearings embedded in it and caused repeated nozzle clogging
That's a good one! Back in May or June I bought a spool of something advertised as "clear ABS" from an Alibaba vendor in China. I was excited when it arrived and eagerly loaded it up to print my light pipe. An hour later when I went to check the part it looked like a small animal had gone to the bathroom on my build platform :o

Re: Printing at lower temps for aftermarket ABS

Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:15 pm
by art103
I have been running this mod for about a week now and am really happy with the quality improvement it gives.

However; One of the benefits I found with after market ABS was the stronger layer bond with running it at higher temperature.
This is the only drawback I have found so far with using a lower temperature - support removal is a doddle, but layer bonding is back to the same as the OEM filament.
I tend to print the first few layers at around 240 then drop to 220 for the rest of the print.

Given the unlikelihood of S/W controlled extruder temperature, I have designed a PCB for a more mainstream mod that plugs into the extruder PCB in line with the ribbon cable. The ribbon cable then plugs into the new PCB, so no cutting or soldering required.
It has the same LCD and buttons as the images I posted further up, but incorporates everything on a 40mm x 40mm PCB that should be easy enough to design into a modified extruder cover :)
I have also extended the range for +40 to -140 degC offset (120 to 300 degC when on ABS settings).

I am having a batch of 6 bare PCBs made - PM me if you are interested.

Re: Printing at lower temps for aftermarket ABS

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:33 am
by mr6k
Richard wrote "Given the unlikelihood of S/W controlled extruder temperature, I......................"

I do hope you are wrong Richard. I think the ability to adjust the temperature of the extruder followed by adjustment of platform temperature are way up there with a "No Support mode" as the top three software enhancement wishes of this forum's list of users.

Such advances would also, I believe help promote further sales of the printer.

cheers

Peter

Re: Printing at lower temps for aftermarket ABS

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:26 am
by wilsonj
mr6k wrote: Such advances would also, I believe help promote further sales of the printer.

cheers

Peter
But not their high temp filament....

Re: Printing at lower temps for aftermarket ABS

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:58 pm
by artie11
An aftermarket PCB as art103 was talking about would be the way to go... it would allow you to set your temps for the raft differently to the print..
Also avoids the warranty issues as it's a plug in fix.. You'd never be able to tell it was even there if you had to send it away.

As for aftermarket filament.. I've also been testing some and found some of the aftermarket PLA works off the bat.. Which is great cause I've found a wonderful supplier who I reckon I could work with.. Only downside is the massive order quantity, Minimum is 20 Rolls per order But after 60 rolls the price halves too.. So may have to start selling it to the australian market to be able to get decently priced stuff.

Re: Printing at lower temps for aftermarket ABS

Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:07 am
by smarterengineering
Re: Printing at lower temps for aftermarket ABS

Postby artie11 ยป Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:58 pm
An aftermarket PCB as art103 was talking about would be the way to go... it would allow you to set your temps for the raft differently to the print..
Also avoids the warranty issues as it's a plug in fix.. You'd never be able to tell it was even there if you had to send it away.

As for aftermarket filament.. I've also been testing some and found some of the aftermarket PLA works off the bat.. Which is great cause I've found a wonderful supplier who I reckon I could work with.. Only downside is the massive order quantity, Minimum is 20 Rolls per order But after 60 rolls the price halves too.. So may have to start selling it to the australian market to be able to get decently priced stuff.
Id have a chat to WilsonJ about that :)

id love to find some off the bat plastics that were half price that printed without any temp mods.

Re: Printing at lower temps for aftermarket ABS

Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 7:42 am
by wilsonj
The temp mod is a real plug and forget item. I've been using mine for some time with no issues at all. Its been quite a few months since I have even used the OEM ABS anyway. For me there isn't any real advantage. As for PLA, although I stock it and sell it, feed problems or not I generally prefer ABS as a printing media. Sure there are some colours that you can't get with ABS, but its much easier to sand, glue and work with in general than PLA. IMO.

Re: Printing at lower temps for aftermarket ABS

Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:42 am
by mr6k
I agree ABS is the best material for most purposes, it has a better feel, is less brittle and does not bio degrade. However there are a few engineering instances where PLA wins out. I needed to make a threaded support inside a petrol (Gas) filler pipe. ABS won't crack it as ABS goes floppy near such fumes. PLA holds up well in soak tests that I have tried.

cheers

Peter

Re: Printing at lower temps for aftermarket ABS

Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:21 pm
by wilsonj
mr6k wrote:I agree ABS is the best material for most purposes, it has a better feel, is less brittle and does not bio degrade. However there are a few engineering instances where PLA wins out. I needed to make a threaded support inside a petrol (Gas) filler pipe. ABS won't crack it as ABS goes floppy near such fumes. PLA holds up well in soak tests that I have tried.

cheers

Peter
Hi Peter, good call. PLA's resistance to chemicals can also be its strength.

Re: Printing at lower temps for aftermarket ABS

Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:41 pm
by JuliaDee
I've been doing a lot of PLA printing over the past few days. While not as easy or as pleasant to work with as ABS, it has its good points. I'm printing engineering parts that need dimensional accuracy and solid walls for bosses and such, and it seems to be much better than ABS for that. Zero warpage is also a big plus. Getting some very clean prints with it, but it requires a lot of babysitting and settings tweaking to keep the feed stepper happy and support removal possible. Also the Petitclerc spring-pressure feed mechanism is a must, on my machine at least.

For light pipes, although I do love the clear ABS from 3dprintingsystems, natural PLA is still more transmissive and a better guide of light than ABS, probably due to its harder surface yielding more internal reflection.

julia