bed heating

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vmstech
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Location: Bucks, United Kingdom

Re: bed heating

Post by vmstech » Tue Jul 19, 2016 3:27 pm

Tiertime-Jason wrote:Sorry guys, we just found the problem.
The software team just confirmed that the preheat function is not compatible with older machines :shock: , eg. UP BOX, UP mini, UP Plus2
The preheat function can be used on mini 2, UP BOX+ and other newer models.

In the next software update the preheat function may be removed for older machines. We are trying to figure out a way to add back the preheat for older models.
I agree with the comments being made. It really is vital to have the ability to preheat the bed using Studio as it influences substantially if the print will be successful and adhere to the bed or not. Removing the preheat function for older machines really isn't going to solve this problem :(
And you may say "older machines" but I've only had this UP box for a couple of weeks, I wouldn't exactly call that old... :?

Owen Sparks aka Marksman
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Re: bed heating

Post by Owen Sparks aka Marksman » Tue Jul 19, 2016 7:33 pm

Hi folks.

Agree preheat should be there and losing is can't be a solution.

Just wondering...

Under what circumstances do you personally use / need it?

I'm still very new to 3D printing but have printed in the region of 1000 parts on my upbox so far. (It runs every weekday, every night and every weekend.) All in ABS, all on a perfboard (so far). Not once have I pre-heated the bed, other than stating next print whilst still somewhat warm from the last one.

Nozzle height has been an issue. Perhaps with a pre-heat it would be more tolerant?

Just interested in soaking up some wisdom.

Cheers,

Owen S.

arhi
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Re: bed heating

Post by arhi » Tue Jul 19, 2016 8:05 pm

OwenSparks wrote: Under what circumstances do you personally use / need it?
first, you want the heat from the bed to heat the bottom of the object so it cools more evenly, in a boxed printer it's a different story but in open one that's super important.. if you print long pieces or thick plates (for e.g. cover screen for device you just made thats 5x8cm plate 5mm thick) and you don't want them to warp... you have to have bed at proper temp ... without preheating till the nozzle gets up to temp bed goes to 40-60C depending on previous temp, temp of the room etc... that's not enough for a big print..

what's more important after some 9 years of 3d printing (and hundreds and hundreds of kilos of plastic used) one start to look at rafts with resignation and disgust ... and if you want to print raftless (talking about ABS only, PLA is different beast and I rarely use it except for support on dual nozzle machines) that perfboard is a no-go so you have to use "smooth" boards ... many options exist... and they require different approach
- a smooth plate (alu, glass, whatever) covered with kapton tape. this requires some 70-100C for proper adhesion but kapton gets messed up over time, is not cheap where I live so I'm not big fan of it .. it does give you great finish but.. also 70-100C is not something you can achieve without preheat!!
- a smooth plate (alu, glass, something with kapton on..) sprayed with hair spray (you have to use cheap hair spray without parfume), this I personally don't like, with PLA works great with ABS and big parts you get warping issues if the bed is not hot enough, and even if bed is hot enough (and never is with UP even with preheating working) you get warping on some specifically difficult parts so .. easy to work with, I don't use it (if you go with PLA it is attm the best option - borosilicate glass sprayed with hair spray) .. 70-100C necessary for good adhesion for ABS, less for PLA
- same crap as hair spray only you spread paper glue (one in stick) on your smooth surface ... works great only there's HUGE chance of nozzle clogging so I don't recommend it with UP! (I destroyed one whole nozzle+heater block, 100$ in damages, because of this) ... 60-80C necesary to print
- ABS slury - this is what I use now, make a slury (take acetone, pure one not the crap your wife uses that's full of oil and other crap, dissolve scraps of ABS in it, leave overnight to fully dissolve, you want consistency of milk, if you added too much abs add more acetone, if it's too thin, add more ABS wait another 24h .. don't heat up acetone, leave at room temp). use a smooth surface, I use 1mm thick alu board that I put instead of perf board, use a brush and coat it with the slury in one direction, leave it to dry, now go with brush but in 90 degrees strokes to what first coat was, leave to dry.. you have a print surface, print on this, 50C is enough for good adhesion (still you want hotter during print on open printer to relieve stress but I'm printing pretty hard to print parts on this without problem), 100C ideal .. when you remove the part after print you will remove the piece of slury with it (its thinner then paper, easily cleaned from part) use the brush and recoat the bed where the slury was removed ... The only problem with this tehnique is that your slury is usually some "undefined color" (usually starts white but as you use it you add more abs and more acetone in it, you add colored abs so it gets to some undefined "pidgin" color) so the bottom of your part gets some of that color on it. Ideally you could when you put a new spool, first make a slury out of that spool and you have the same color slury as your abs, and every time you change printing color you clean your print surfdace and apply properly colored slury but ... my life is not long enough for that so I use same slury always :D
- special print surfaces for e.g. I, on my other printers, use printbite, it is crazy good print surface, CRAAAAAZY good .. but it requires 100C for good adhesion (100C to be the printbite, that's usually 120C of the bed it's on). up was properly heating so I could not use printbite with it (great thing with printbite, you heat it to 100C ABS glues to it like crazy, you cool it to under 50C abs detaches without any force) .. now with my new heater it does work but ... njah, never mind ..

hope this helps understand the preheat issue... so to summarize
- attm bed comes up to 40-60C when the print starts
- some print surfaces (most of them) don't find that temperature hot enough for proper adhesion object to print surface

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Tiertime-Jason
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Re: bed heating

Post by Tiertime-Jason » Wed Jul 20, 2016 12:56 am

We are also surprised with finding. :oops: and will try to fix this in future software updates.

Another solution could be using the CPU upgrade kit that will be release in the next couple of months.
The upgrade will cover older models, UP Plus2, UP mini, UP BOX. The new CPU will have wifi capability and updated firmware (fully compatible with UP Studio).
The price for the upgrade kit is about 100USD. :|

arhi
Posts: 256
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:51 pm

Re: bed heating

Post by arhi » Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:54 am

apart from the new firmware and esp8266 chip, anything else new on the "cpu upgrade" ? (like ability to push g-code directly to the machine :D )

tel
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Location: Australia
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Re: bed heating

Post by tel » Wed Jul 20, 2016 4:06 am

Tiertime-Jason wrote:We are also surprised with finding. :oops: and will try to fix this in future software updates.

Another solution could be using the CPU upgrade kit that will be release in the next couple of months.
The upgrade will cover older models, UP Plus2, UP mini, UP BOX. The new CPU will have wifi capability and updated firmware (fully compatible with UP Studio).
The price for the upgrade kit is about 100USD. :|
Will these be released locally (ie Australia) as well? Otherwise we may be up for an additional $100 in postage. $100 sounds reasonable so look forward to it being launched.

Diego.Giovany
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Re: bed heating

Post by Diego.Giovany » Wed Jul 20, 2016 4:24 am

Hi Jason, do you will release a firmware update for current cpus? It's a high priced piece of hardware to change just for a firmware upgrade....

I understand the wifi situation, but I've using a old tp-link (USD25) with virtualhere for wireless usb, and this solution is near perfect and cheap...


Hope you understand my concerns, thanks !

Owen Sparks aka Marksman
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Re: bed heating

Post by Owen Sparks aka Marksman » Wed Jul 20, 2016 6:29 am

@Ahri

Ahri, you are a gentleman sir, thanks for such a thorough and helpful reply. I'll start a new thread so an not to dilute the original topic of this one.

Keen to have a play with he slurry method.

Really appreciate your time.

Cheers,

Owen S.

arhi
Posts: 256
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:51 pm

Re: bed heating

Post by arhi » Wed Jul 20, 2016 9:50 am

OwenSparks wrote:@Ahri
Ahri, you are a gentleman sir, thanks for such a thorough and helpful reply.
no worries just trying to get something back to the community :D
btw it's arhi, not ahri :D it's from arhimed - the way, serbians (u know the war criminals tribe from balkan ;) ), we spell archiemedes, what is my nickname for past ~25 years :D ... for some reason lot of ppl spell it ahri, no clue why :D
OwenSparks wrote: I'll start a new thread so an not to dilute the original topic of this one.
good idea

arhi
Posts: 256
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:51 pm

Re: bed heating

Post by arhi » Fri Jul 22, 2016 11:07 am

Tiertime-Jason wrote: The software team just confirmed that the preheat function is not compatible with older machines :shock: , eg. UP BOX, UP mini, UP Plus2
I have to bitch about this again :( ... just went to a main tt website and UP Plus 2 is "current machine" - it is what you are selling RIGHT NOW .. how is it "older machine" ?!

phuriousgeorge
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Re: bed heating

Post by phuriousgeorge » Wed Aug 03, 2016 3:45 am

Not to mention, I just bought an UP Mini. Too bad I didn't realize the UP Mini 2 was coming out soon... I'd have used that same $$ to buy the newer model. Guess I'm stuck with the "outdated" yet today current model that requires a lot of work-arounds due to sub-par software?

I'd really hate to gut my new machine and shove new electronics in just because I bought it at the wrong time.

vmstech
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 11:23 am
Location: Bucks, United Kingdom

Re: bed heating

Post by vmstech » Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:58 pm

phuriousgeorge wrote:Not to mention, I just bought an UP Mini. Too bad I didn't realize the UP Mini 2 was coming out soon... I'd have used that same $$ to buy the newer model. Guess I'm stuck with the "outdated" yet today current model that requires a lot of work-arounds due to sub-par software?

I'd really hate to gut my new machine and shove new electronics in just because I bought it at the wrong time.
@phuriousgeorge
I couldn't agree with you more! I also just bought a new UP box and haven't seen any info on the TT website about a new version of it coming out either. Feels like they're focusing on supporting machines that aren't available on the market yet rather than thinking about the current users :(

Owen Sparks aka Marksman
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Re: bed heating

Post by Owen Sparks aka Marksman » Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:16 pm

I'm a little torn.

The opportunity to purchase an updated main PCB for a machine is fairly unusual. Most companies would just have a new model and that would be it. The ability to get new/better printing just by swapping out a PCB, hell yeah, I like that.

However those with recent purchases may feel a little robbed. (At some stage a new model will always replace an old one so somebody somewhere is going to be disappointed. Announcing new models too early just drops sales as customers put off buying the current model.)

I can see a fair method being a serious discount being offered to anyone with a machine less than a year old. If you have an older machine and wish to upgrade then you can, if you have a recent purchase you can upgrade at minimal cost. Sound fair?

I still remember the pentium outrage in the UK. Loads of people saved up and bought PC's as Christmas presents. As soon as it was new year and the glut of existing chips were sold MS announced the new MMX processor. Lots of unhappy campers.

I like the current Up hardware and being to upgrade it without buying a whole new machine has my vote.

Cheers,

Owen S.

phuriousgeorge
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Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2016 11:11 pm

Re: bed heating

Post by phuriousgeorge » Thu Aug 04, 2016 11:23 pm

OwenSparks wrote:I like the current Up hardware and being to upgrade it without buying a whole new machine has my vote.
Don't get me wrong, I'm loving my new little machine, but I should have done some additional research first and held out a little longer. I do appreciate the revisions they've made to the hardware and making them available, but at the same time, those like me who pay for a new machine that immediately has hardware updates/upgrades available is kind of disheartening; then toss questionable backwards-compatible software :cry:

On that note, anyone have a link to the upgraded mainboard? I just bought a bed heater upgrade, might as well go for the gusto.

arhi
Posts: 256
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:51 pm

Re: bed heating

Post by arhi » Fri Aug 05, 2016 12:14 am

OwenSparks wrote:The ability to get new/better printing just by swapping out a PCB, hell yeah, I like that.
but what will be better? there's already fairly powerful cpu on board and it's just the cpu so
- no extra print functionality (there's no better stepper drivers, another extruder, more powerful print bed... )
- theres a new firmware, that's again closed, working with same closed slicer

so the only difference is they will next to usb2uard add wifi2uart (that you can do yourself for ~20$, roughly 5x cheaper then what they are charging for new firmware and wifi upgrade) ... is it worth 100$ ?! ... we get now "cpu upgrade" to get new firmware for 100$, what in 2 weeks when they figure they can't fit some new functionality required in the software and ask another 100$ for another upgrade?!

dunno, there's over 100 up printers that are purchased only because I said "go get up!, don't get other stuff", now I need to look those ppl in the eye and say, well sorry I gave you stupid advice? I for sure ain't recommending up to noone any more, what advantage they had some years ago they lost

orsonguels
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2016 12:43 am

Re: bed heating

Post by orsonguels » Wed Nov 23, 2016 12:50 am

Tiertime-Jason wrote:I will report this to software team and keep you posted about this issue.
Thank you guys! :P
Hi, I'm having the 50 C issue with Up Plus and 2.18 when Up Studio has been installed. I've heard in some other threads that it was because Up Studio modified the Up Plus firmware so Up 2.18 thinks 50C is the correct bed temperature. In fact, if I heat it to 90C, when it starts printing it shows "150% heating" and then quickly starts to decrease temperature to 50C.

Anything new about how to solve it?

arhi
Posts: 256
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:51 pm

Re: bed heating

Post by arhi » Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:36 pm

you have to reflash it to work but it won't flash older version over latest and if you were flashing your whenever the v2 came with firmware you now have firmware that's newer then anything available on the website ..for some reason they removed some images ... I pinged their support without success so .. good luck solving it :(...

menno_h
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:34 pm

Re: bed heating

Post by menno_h » Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:37 pm

Hi TierTime,
I bought an UP mini 2 this week. So I assume with the latest firmware and all. But also I notice that the printer starts printing as soon as the nozzle temperature is reached (260 for ABS). At this time - and actually during the whole print - the bed temperature only reaches about 50% (don't know what Celcius temperature that is, I think about 40 Celcius).

Also, when the print has started, temperatures are displayed in percentages, how can I change between displaying the percentage and displaying the actual Celcius value?

Kind regards,
Menno

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