Initial setup questions / Extruder alignment

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Marcus
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Initial setup questions / Extruder alignment

Post by Marcus » Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:00 pm

Sorry if this has been asked before, but I just recieved my parcel (thanks, pp3dp!) and I am in the middle of setting it up.
I installed the extruder (1. in the updated manual, real good work by the way!).
I noticed the extruder is "pointing" away from the Printer a bit.
I did a quick (exagerated) sketch instead of fetching the camera, if it is not clear, I will post a pic later.

Also I noticed that for mounting the screws for the abs spool holder and feeder I had to squeeze/bend the case a little untill i screwed them in, in order to align the sheet metal holes again. Is that a problem?

Back setting it up now :-) Excitement! Sorry if questions have been answered allready, a search to extruder / Alignment did bring up some, but nothing I was looking for.


Sketch: Exagerated side view, extruder "pointing away" from printer; Not that much on the actual machine, but I was wondering if it will cause any troubles.
Attachments
pp3dp-extruder.PNG
Quick sketch with the netbook trackpad of the extruder alignment :P
pp3dp-extruder.PNG (6.27 KiB) Viewed 17089 times

Linkreincarnate
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Re: Initial setup questions / Extruder alignment

Post by Linkreincarnate » Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:10 pm

Just bend it so the back of the extruded is parallel to the front of the extruded axis.

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josejuako
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Re: Initial setup questions / Extruder alignment

Post by josejuako » Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:49 pm

1) Look all and put all on the travel axis.
2) Put the platform 90º extruder head and the same measuring on the 4 corners and in the center.
3) Put better grease in the bearing rails and in the z whit out rail put grease too.
4) The dense factor is very important put 5.
5) Blue or yellow tape is very good.

I use bilstein febi nº 21909 Hochtemperatur-Wälzlagerfett from germany. Und der ABS für Her Joachim Glauche http://www.reprapsource.com
J.

Marcus
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Re: Initial setup questions / Extruder alignment

Post by Marcus » Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:08 am

Thanks for all the info you two :-) I was just not sure I should just (carefully) bend it.
When reading through other topics, using grease and such was discussed a few times, with no real result (what does pp3dp say?)
I do not want to risk to void the waranty or anything.

I do have another issue with removing the support, and before opening yet another topic, I will just continue here.

After following the manual step-by-step and copying the nozzle height from maintanance into setup (using a folded sheet of paper), the first print resulted in a crash into the plattform :shock:
After using the (new?) "Set nozzle height" button in the mantainance dialog it worked though. But I was more carefull to not get it too close to the platform.

It's printing well! Yey! BUT...
Now to the problem:
Even though the raft is removed very easy from the plattform, (perhaps a bit too easy, need to be a more brave even after it bumping into the plattform) getting the thing off the parts is crazzy.
First I printed two earing models (1,5cm and 3cm square) and later the screwcaps on thingiverse from odiegel. Tried different settings, too.
While the first layer of the raft is removed easily, the last layer is so attached to the material, that I have to cut it off or use sharp pliers... often dammaging the object or at least leaving it looking real banged up on the bottom.

After seeing Madox's tiny water pump and other items, I wonder what I am doing wrong?
Is there a specific dense-setting? I tried nearly all kinds of combinations of dense, space, angle and area, and disabled the "solid support". No real difference, neither using fine or fast, 0.20mm or 0.30mm. :-(

Gilius
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Re: Initial setup questions / Extruder alignment

Post by Gilius » Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:11 am

Yes the solid raft is a b****. What solved a couple of my issues was to set the density to 5. This makes the raft more solid and easy to grip and pull.

Marcus
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Re: Initial setup questions / Extruder alignment

Post by Marcus » Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:31 am

Thank you for the quick reply!

I will try that, but I think I had it on 5 on the second print.
Would enabling "stable support" perhaps make it easier to pull it off in one piece, or does it just attach even more to the object?
When watching videos of printing / printed models from the pp3dp, people twist off the support. Perhaps just possible on larger items?

Now printing the calibration file... 2:24 on 0.20mm & "fine" :-)

Madox
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Re: Initial setup questions / Extruder alignment

Post by Madox » Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:26 am

What's wrong with my pumps!

You have NOT seen the one I printed back then... it is so small I've lost it like... wait its still lost (It is around 8mmx8mmx12mm, yes it works).

I typically don't do much post clean up except using that wonderful cutter supplied with the printer
My print settings are typically :-
Fine,
0.2mm Layers,
Solid,
Dense 4 Layers
Raft <40deg
Raft <5mm or <10mm depending on geometry.

One trick I use is to use the cutter around the model to just loosen it around the edges. Then it usually just pops/rips right off.

Marcus
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Re: Initial setup questions / Extruder alignment

Post by Marcus » Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:42 am

Thanks for the info Madox!
Nothing wrong with them, just so tiny, I wonder how you seperated them :-) Thank you for the adivce... Yeah, as in the manuel... It needs some time and after a while it is sort of a relaxing activity ;-)

Cutting arround it is a great advice... With the last part I sort of did that, and it came off easier.

The future is now! 20 minutes left for the calibration piece... after that, I'll go through my folder and the thingiverse list ;-)

Marcus
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Re: Initial setup questions / Extruder alignment

Post by Marcus » Tue Jan 18, 2011 1:59 pm

Sorry for double posting, but I am trying to print earrings for the 6th time now.
I know it is probably not really a good model to be printed on the up, but the other small parts do not print well either.
Image
Full image: http://wap.cc/tmp2/fh_ohrringe001.png

No matter the orientation, I can hardly seperate it from the support/basis layers. Tried printing it 3x3 cm (4mm square frame thickness, 4,5-6mm element thickness) and 2x2cm, laying and standing.

standing model:
A mess. It would be faster carving it out of a solid block of ABS ;-) Just tried it after the first two prints failed.

laying model:
When I watch videos of the little twisted bottle or others, the support seems to be removed easily with plyers or even bare hands. Now I know this is smaller and more fragile, but I can hardly even cut into the basis , as it is so attached to the model. (sometimes it is hard to tell where the base ends and the first model layer starts). If I get hold of a piece with the pliers, it is so brittle it will just break and I have to use the knife anyway.

On the last I used a knife and the pliers, and could hardly clean it... Took 40 minutes- Then one of the elements broke off.

I am using the pp3dp ABS, and changed the settings to solid fill, and tried dense 3/6, space 3/12/15, Angle 10/45/80, Area 3/10/20mm^2, and most of the combination if I could the screw knob testprints.
The knobs are more compact/solid and tend to seperate better, but I have to cut off most of the solid base layer with the knife...).
Using Fine/0.2mm mostly.

Any chance I can get this printed, or am I expecting too much?
The stl is not very clean (exported from a sketchup file directly) but prints almost 1:1 except a few loose edges.

Here a quick image of the first prints
Image
Full image: http://wap.cc/tmp2/pp3dp-unboxing/firstprints.png[

The only thing that soothe my nervs at the moment is that the bigger, solid calibration-cross-prints seem to peel off a bit easier. Printing the earring with a wall now instead of beeing in a loose frame... I hope that'll do.

Other then these problems, I really like the printing quality so far. Looks promising.

Marcus
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Re: Initial setup questions / Extruder alignment

Post by Marcus » Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:40 pm

http://wap.cc/tmp2/pp3dp/fhohrring0/
I had to break off square-milimeter sized bits to get the support off, and eventually got under the model layer as it is hard to tell sometimes.
Not happy with it :(

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josejuako
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Re: Initial setup questions / Extruder alignment

Post by josejuako » Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:13 pm

Hey friend you are a master , your first 3D files are very good I like very much , congratulations .
I have best results whit acrylic paint and finish whit a lacquer in spray.
J.

Madox
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Re: Initial setup questions / Extruder alignment

Post by Madox » Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:37 pm

Marcus,
Level your platform
Clean your nozzle
Watch the print

The 'burnt' bits usually is a sign that your platform isn't flat. i.e. when the nozzle has to 'push' a print down, and the side of the nozzle touches the model.

I did this post for you but posted in another thread : http://www.madox.net/blog/2011/01/19/me ... rovements/

Have a look at the middle photo at how cleanly the model comes off the raft. I deliberately left the raft on the photos to show that I did not have to be forceful and break the raft.

Summary :
I suspect your platform is not 'flat' and the model is being pushed onto the raft a bit too hard on the bits that are higher up. Did you notice the bits that are harder to remove are usually on one side? :) You'll also get this problem if you get model warping off the platform.

Madox
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Re: Initial setup questions / Extruder alignment

Post by Madox » Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:40 pm

Oh just saw http://wap.cc/tmp2/pp3dp/fhohrring0/IMG_7298_Grau.html
See my post :P Remove that recess unless it is really important you have it...
Or at least put a 45deg chamber or a blend on those edges, works wonders.

Marcus
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Re: Initial setup questions / Extruder alignment

Post by Marcus » Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:44 pm

Thanks for the all the advice.

On http://wap.cc/tmp2/pp3dp/fhohrring0/IMG_7298_Grau.html it SHOULD be one smooth plattform. But using pliers and such ripped down into the object layer!
I continued to pull it appart and cut it square, so it looks as done on purpose and not dammaged...

45 degree chamber?

Actually, after the first error when the head scraped the plattform, I set a little more distance. It actually was a bit to loose, perhaps "4 sheets of paper" distance- but worked. (well, untill printing the larger figure, which came off the plattform)
The raft itself was easy to pull of the plattform, so it should not be squished.
On my last print I corrected the nozzle height, and it made no difference. While the raft base was strongly attached to the plattform, it was equaly hard to remove from the object.

No matter what side of the plattform, it is equally hard to remove. (calibration print for example- it was a bit easier as they are long and flat, and stable to grip, not so gragile as the earring... but same issues basicly)

When I twisted or pulled the dense raft layer, it will break the models layers instead of disattach.
I even flipped one model test (knitting needle holder, 0.4/fast) to reduce the raft to absolute MINIMUM, and when forcing it with pliers, it ripped off a edge of the model: http://wap.cc/tmp2/pp3dp/anubsi/Anubsi0test.png
While cutting this particular piece would be no problem, on difficult and larger areas it would be easier to carve the darn object out of a block :-(

If I cut into it a milimeter to pull it appart, it will just either break off and I have to cut it bit by bit, or pull into the object layers as well, damaging the item.


Tomorrow, I will try to
-peel it with the grain
-re level plattform and nozzle

I think I tried everything else allready... Dense setting all the way up etc. - nothing helped. Kind of looks like the prints some posted when using maker gear ABS, which got too hot in the pp3dp up and was hard to remove from the raft as well.

The thing that puzzles me is that the support for overhangs, like on Kaetemis figure, pulled of so easily! I could remove it all with my fingers. The dense raft on the base and the arm-ends where impossible once again to remove.
If it had not been for Kaetemis figure, I would have started cursing at the darn machine ;-)
http://wap.cc/tmp2/pp3dp/kaetemi-thingiverse-figure/2/
Never mind the burnt head ;-) I fixed the height calibration now so the raft sticks more to the plattform, the problem remains though.

Thanks for all the support, I really need some sleep now. Patience, english skills and my concentration is failing me now :mrgreen: Ciao!

Madox
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Re: Initial setup questions / Extruder alignment

Post by Madox » Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:47 am

Chamfer :P
Typo...

i.e. ___/````` instead of ____|``````

Twurf
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Re: Initial setup questions / Extruder alignment

Post by Twurf » Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:55 pm

I think your extruder temp is out or at least on the upper end of the allowed tolerance range. Do you have an infrared thermometer for a rough check?
Also, did you contact pp3dp support?
I did not print yet with my printer but i would not be happy either with such results...

Marcus
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Re: Initial setup questions / Extruder alignment

Post by Marcus » Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:16 pm

Madox: I am trying, I really am... I have had no luck... All videos I saw prior to ordering where "twist-off" or simply use pliers to rip it off. The dense raft support can only be cut off.

Perhaps I should go at this step-by-step. Could you suggest a (thingiverse) model and the settings I should print? Then I can make photos (or perhaps film) the result.

I can't count the numbers of nozzle calibrations I have done. Everything is leveled. Even small parts in the center where I mesured first with the paper will not come off. And as far as I can tell the plattform is leveled... Only thing I can see what is wrong is that the print head holder had to be bent (original subject of this forum thread).


Twurf: That's my guess, but as a pp3dp newbie I am still hoping I am just doing something wrong.
Nope, no thermometer, wish I had ordered one of those cheap "laser thermometers" off ebay- are they any good (or at least, decent enough for this task?)

Before contacting pp3dp support I want to make sure I did everything I could to be sure the problem is not ... ME ... :mrgreen:
The quality and the details of the prints are superb... but the raft is horrible. I printed 100+ g of plastic allready untill now, and all I can use is one half-damaged print and the plattform hand screw holders.



? Could this be a temperature issue? New ABS vendor? Or am I just to stupid to get this thing working? :roll: The only dense support I was able to somewhat remove in one piece was on the calibration print after cutting it off half way and used big pliers to rip it off.

Madox
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Re: Initial setup questions / Extruder alignment

Post by Madox » Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:20 pm

Drop me an PM with your email and I'll send you a model to print...

Edit : Actually print my whistle
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5312

Print it flat on its long thin side like
http://www.thingiverse.com/image:34816
Place it 'across' the platform

Gently snap both ends, then peel.

Print using 0.2mm Layer, Fine, Solid, Dense 4, <40deg, all others on defaults.
Then pics...

.... If you look at those Thingiverse pics, they're always of the base/raft side... e.g. http://www.thingiverse.com/image:34815

Marcus
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Re: Initial setup questions / Extruder alignment

Post by Marcus » Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:46 pm

Thanks, I will do that as soon as possible.
I just printed two different Lego like blocks off Thingiverse after resetting the calibration print settings, re-adjusting the nozzle height, and using the quickest setting (fast/0.4mm/2 layer surface). I printed them holes-down to get a nice surface on the knob side.

The parts look nice, but I can neither get the bigger lego block off the plattform (when I had the nozzle set higher it would get loose easily) nor will it break off the support material. I'm trying to push it off the plattform with both thumbs! Just to give you an idea how attached it is :-)
Also when using the big plyers to get it off, the loose raft allways stripps of the solid raft, from some videos I would have thought it comes off in one piece.

Madox
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Re: Initial setup questions / Extruder alignment

Post by Madox » Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:47 pm

Oh and wait for the piece to cool before trying to remove the raft off the part?

...

PS : I use the blue 3M tape and not the pp3dp green s...tuff...

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