0.20mm vs 0.15mm

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jspark
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0.20mm vs 0.15mm

Post by jspark » Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:09 pm

Thanks for updating the software.

Image

Marcus
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Re: 0.20mm vs 0.15mm

Post by Marcus » Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:39 am

Thanks for the comparison shot!
From photographing little things I know how misleading macro shots of 3d print's layers can be, but it seems like the 0.15mm print has a few more bumps/uneven layers? Especially at the cheek.
Great otherwise!
What speed setting did you use? Fine, normal?
What abs and what fan setup (stock?)?

-Marcus

jspark
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Re: 0.20mm vs 0.15mm

Post by jspark » Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:28 am

Hi, Marcus. :)

I used normal grey ABS on the low temperature.
I'd like to use the OEM filament.
But the OEM filament is too expensive here, so I could't have used.

The grey color ABS looks like more unevenly than the brighter color filaments.
And it shows more uneven surfaces than the case of 0.2mm layer setting.
So the overall feelling was not that much nice than that of I expected.

I'm trying to find the reason of eneven surface.
I'd like to compare with OEM filament and normal ABS where is it come from.
And I am thinking the possibilities of that because of my unstable platform or extruder header.

The printing speed was fine, and I used wind barrier v7.

Regards

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wackojacko
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Re: 0.20mm vs 0.15mm

Post by wackojacko » Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:01 pm

If the filament diameter, or extrusion temperature is not exact for the UP you will get some imperfections in print quality, best to use OEM plastic do compare.

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Marcus
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Re: 0.20mm vs 0.15mm

Post by Marcus » Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:53 pm

Thanks for the info on the setup :-) I'm not at home at the moment, can't wait to try. Does the firmware update change anything? Does the temperature display still show up?

Eurisko84
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Re: 0.20mm vs 0.15mm

Post by Eurisko84 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:24 am

Marcus wrote:Thanks for the info on the setup :-) I'm not at home at the moment, can't wait to try. Does the firmware update change anything? Does the temperature display still show up?
Im am running it right now, whilst printing, maintenance screen shows percentages (not the 0.9 - 1.0 display like before) on the temp.

During extrusion/withdrawal or platform pre-heating it still shows the temperature.

No other changes I can see yet.

eyUP
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Re: 0.20mm vs 0.15mm

Post by eyUP » Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:48 am

You can see the difference between 0.15 and 0.2mm pretty well here:
Attachments
Layer-Thickness-015-vs-020.jpg
Layer-Thickness-015-vs-020.jpg (53.31 KiB) Viewed 22348 times

jspark
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Re: 0.20mm vs 0.15mm

Post by jspark » Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:10 pm

Is it OEM filament?

eyUP
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Re: 0.20mm vs 0.15mm

Post by eyUP » Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:51 pm

Yes that's the pp3dp yellow

jspark
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Re: 0.20mm vs 0.15mm

Post by jspark » Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:30 am

The round is looks good.
But it also, in case of 0.15mm, the vertical flat surface looks like more unevenly than 0.2mm.
Could you sharing me the model file?
I'd like to compare with it in my UP.

eyUP
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Re: 0.20mm vs 0.15mm

Post by eyUP » Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:39 am

That part was not mine to distribute, but this is a similar thing with even more small detail...it prints really well
You will have to scale it down in the UP! software so it's about 10-15mm wide
Attachments
small-yellow-test-part.zip
(10.07 KiB) Downloaded 481 times

jspark
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Re: 0.20mm vs 0.15mm

Post by jspark » Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:23 am

Thanks for sharing the file. :)

nz_andy
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Re: 0.20mm vs 0.15mm

Post by nz_andy » Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:11 pm

I find the 0.15 option very useful, it is a great feature to have and makes a big difference for fine detail and surface finish.
When you look around there are some very expensive printers that don't have less than 0.254 (why I don't know)

roller
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Re: 0.20mm vs 0.15mm

Post by roller » Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:07 am

When you look around there are some very expensive printers that don't have less than 0.254 (why I don't know)
Old designs mostly and their customers don't necessarily need more detail in prototypes at the expense of speed. It would be to know how small the layer height can go with the Up printers before things get messy. I have noticed 0.15 prints are sometimes better looking sometimes worse than 0.2 and thats to be expected. Imperfections and minute mis-calibrations tend to get amplified with smaller layer heights. I have managed 0.05mm with a reprap and boy it looked nice once I got a decent print but for me it was not worth the effort required and I would never bother again - too long to print and too tedious to tweak. I does make me wonder how low the Up can go with OEM filament though before quality starts to degrade/more precise control of calibration and environment are required.

nz_andy
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Re: 0.20mm vs 0.15mm

Post by nz_andy » Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:30 am

Why not reduce the filament size to say 1.2 giving half the amount of material vs. 1.75 making it easier to get the feed rate right at low feed rates.

Feeder may need to be better with support & drive from more than one side.

DytHlt
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Re: 0.20mm vs 0.15mm

Post by DytHlt » Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:18 am

It'd be easier to just gear down the feed rather than reduce the filament size.

roller
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Re: 0.20mm vs 0.15mm

Post by roller » Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:19 am

Indeed, gearing is the easier option and feedrate is not necessarily an issue if you can up the feedrate on your axes instead. Many of the reprappers printing 50microns or less use 3mm filament (and of course also already have geared extruders)
Last edited by roller on Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

nz_andy
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Re: 0.20mm vs 0.15mm

Post by nz_andy » Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:31 am

The accuracy of the filament diameter will have less effect as size goes down, filament consistency was highlighted as an issue earlier. Also melting the plastic would take less time, less material in the extruder and less degradation of the material at small feed rates.

Same principle applies to plastic injection molding.

roller
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Re: 0.20mm vs 0.15mm

Post by roller » Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:33 am

NZ Andy, can you explain that. I would expect filament diameter becomes more sensitive as the filament diameter decreases e.g. a 0.1mm increase in 1.75mm filament produces nearly a 12% increase in volume extruded whereas a 0.1mm increase in 3mm filament produces nearly 7% increase in volume extruded. 12% overextrusion is going to affect print quality much more than 7%. So you get about 40% more overfill with 1.75mm filament versus 3mm for the same variation.

nz_andy
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Re: 0.20mm vs 0.15mm

Post by nz_andy » Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:42 am

Roller, I’m looking at it the other way around.
Rather than a fixed dimensional different on the diameter I would go for a percentage of diameter ,that just makes more sense to me due to shrinkage etc... for example a 10cm part can be more tightly tolerance than a 10ft part, not because of process but just because it's easier to control.

So taking the 0.1mm increase below on 1.75 that is about 6% on the diameter. Add 6% to 1.2mm filament and we get 1.27 a 0.07 difference

But putting that aside for now:

Taking your example:
1.75 going too 1.85 is 12% increase in volume
I would look at this differently, this resulted in an actual volume increase of 0.28mm3 per mm of feed.
Again going from 3 too 3.1, this is an actual volume difference of 0.48mm3 per mm of feed so a 30% increase in variation over the 1.75 per mm of feed.
Then it still needs to come out the same hole! so the larger filament is worse I think.

See how politicians’ pay with numbers....

But seriously with a larger diameter the feed rate would need to be much more precise, gears will be useful but add another variation also, one larger tooth on a large filament would give a larger variation out the same extrusion hole.

I would rather have twice as much feed rate with (1.2mm filament over 1.75mm) for small layers.

Is it a 0.3mm extrusion hole or 0.2?
If it were possible I would rather have the filament the same size, then it would be very controllable, not practical at the moment I don't think but what would be the min size?

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