Coffee please. dash of milk, no sugar

Coffee place for all the Uppers. Discuss about UP techniques, sharing ideas and tips. Coffee is on the house. :)
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scubamatt41
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Coffee please. dash of milk, no sugar

Post by scubamatt41 » Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:07 pm

Someone I know owns an Ultimaker. He uses the original build plate with blue tape which mostly doesn't work. Mostly it only works after applying something extra like glue or some other experimental solution. He hates it when a print of lets say 16 hours in total fails after 15hours (who would not) but he doesn't believe in printing with raft or brim. Because, according to him, that's a waste of good filament. The thing is that the Blue tape only lasts so long, then it needs to be replaced. The blue tape he has costs approx between €6 and €35 depending on size (thickness of the roll) and supplier.

I believe in always use raft on my UPmini. Brim is something which can only be selected in Cura, which is THE software for the Ultimaker among other printers. I have seen Cura in action and I wish Cura could control an UP.

For me using raft takes away that "out of level" which potentially could kill the print.
Raft reduces the risk of a failed print. I also use a build platform that reduces the amount of failed prints, does not need glue (when used on a 140x140mm build platform) and does not need blue tape or kapton for that matter. That sheet cost me € 6 and will last me a live time if I don't cut into it. Otherwise I just need to sand it down a liltle and thats also a reason I use raft.

What do you think which is the better, cheaper and enviromental friendly solution at the end of the day?

Cheers, Matt
Last edited by scubamatt41 on Wed Oct 15, 2014 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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roller
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Re: Coffee please. dash of milk, no sugar

Post by roller » Wed Oct 15, 2014 3:54 pm

Why would you want Cura? You lose all your removable support! Anyway I am not sure of our question. We don't use rafts on repraps (ultimaker kinda fall in that family) because we can't readily remove the raft ... simple at that. By using a raft (now quite minimal) we use extra plastic but get rid of inconsistencies in the bed which can only be addressed by regular replacement of tape without a raft. So either way your consuing something. If you want to be environmentally friendly, fit a cooling mod, print with PLA (made form corn starch) and you can print it on glass without a raft. No tape required but you have to take your time to get the bed dead level.

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scubamatt41
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Re: Coffee please. dash of milk, no sugar

Post by scubamatt41 » Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:16 pm

roller wrote:Why would you want Cura? You lose all your removable support! Anyway I am not sure of our question. We don't use rafts on repraps (ultimaker kinda fall in that family) because we can't readily remove the raft ... simple at that. By using a raft (now quite minimal) we use extra plastic but get rid of inconsistencies in the bed which can only be addressed by regular replacement of tape without a raft. So either way your consuing something. If you want to be environmentally friendly, fit a cooling mod, print with PLA (made form corn starch) and you can print it on glass without a raft. No tape required but you have to take your time to get the bed dead level.
Hi roller,

Why can't you remove the raft on repraps (and alike)? I would like Cura because as far as I understand you can change the temp more easily? Or is it only the ultimakers controler which allows that? Then I am mistaken.
What does "consuing" mean?

Cheers, Matt
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caesar
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Re: Coffee please. dash of milk, no sugar

Post by caesar » Thu Oct 16, 2014 9:11 am

Hi Matt,
I am by no means an authority in this domain but I can share a few of my thoughts regarding this problem.
Besides UP, I've been using Makerware and most of the other open source/free and also paid softwares.

At the end of the day, if I want something printed quickly, without loosing time I turn to UP for ABS and Flashforge (Makerbot clone) for PLA.
It is just a few clicks to prepare the stl and hit print. No fussing, no time loosing, no problems with printed parts, no monitoring the prints.

The UP strength is the software. It takes care of all the problematic settings that if not picked right can ruin the print.

It is meaningless to think about the raft as lost material. Think about loosing a long print. Now that is really lost material and hours of electricity and also your lost time.

Turning to controlling open source, I have tried Cura, Slic3r, Kissslicer and Simplify3D (last is paid). There is a big difference in obtainable print quality from these. The difference is most visible when printing in single line wall thickness. For me, the best free software is Slic3r then Cura then Kiss. I didn't include S3D because it is a paid software although this is what I use mainly. It has the same burdensome settings but if you take enough time to understand the process and tweak a single setting at a time, in the end you will get great results - even removable support.


Regarding your friend, I can only say that blue tape (wax coated) didn't work for me at all. Plastic in general is not sticking to wax at all. Tell him to get high quality Tesa masking tape (yellow) and he will be able to use it for a lot of prints if he doesn't ruin it by detaching the print. Although, if the print surface is big, it will come out with the tape attached.


Regarding the cheapest and most environmental friendly solution: please keep in mind that even PLA is not directly environmentally friendly as so many would like you to think. It needs very special conditions to be biodegradable. If you throw it to the regular dump it will stay unchanged for a lot of years and behaves exactly like ABS. No gain here at all.

There is no free meal. Just choose between ready cooked and do it yourself food.

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scubamatt41
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Re: Coffee please. dash of milk, no sugar

Post by scubamatt41 » Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:29 pm

Well, about that friend of mine? I bought him a sheet of the same plastic as I have only this was made to fit the Ultimaker. He was just over the moon with the results. He's really concidering not to use Masking tape at all.
He shared some pictures and said it was okay if I posted them. Filament used is PLA
test met klein object_totaal vast tijdens printen voor inet.jpg
test met klein object_totaal vast tijdens printen voor inet.jpg (66.18 KiB) Viewed 9798 times
test met klein object_totaal vlak zijde object voor inet.jpg
test met klein object_totaal vlak zijde object voor inet.jpg (60.92 KiB) Viewed 9798 times
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roller
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Re: Coffee please. dash of milk, no sugar

Post by roller » Sat Oct 18, 2014 5:30 am

scubamatt41 wrote: Why can't you remove the raft on repraps (and alike)? I would like Cura because as far as I understand you can change the temp more easily? Or is it only the ultimakers controler which allows that? Then I am mistaken.
What does "consuing" mean?

Cheers, Matt
Because the open source community either hasn't worked it (support/raft separation) out yet or the only known way is patent protected so there is no point going down that road while it's protected. I beleive it's the former as we used to kick this this problem around with the greatest minds in the community at the time about 12 months when I was still involved in a lot of reprap. You only see easy support removal on commercial printers with closed source software for this reason. Makerbot started to introduce removable support into Makerware just as they closed off the software as well.

Cura = open source = no special sauce for clean snap/peel away support.
Last edited by roller on Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

stormychel
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Re: Coffee please. dash of milk, no sugar

Post by stormychel » Tue Oct 21, 2014 11:17 am

roller wrote:
scubamatt41 wrote: Why can't you remove the raft on repraps (and alike)? I would like Cura because as far as I understand you can change the temp more easily? Or is it only the ultimakers controler which allows that? Then I am mistaken.
What does "consuing" mean?

Cheers, Matt
Because the open source community either hasn't worked it (support/raft separation) out yet or the only known way is patent protected so there is no point going down that road while it's protected. I beleive it's the former as we used to kick this this problem around with the greatest minds in the community at the time about 12 months when I was still involved in a lot of reprap. You only see easy support removal on commercial printers with closed source software for this reason. Makerbot started to introduce removable support into Makerware just as they closed off the software as well.

Cure = open source = no special sauce for clean snap/peel away support.
roller, do you have experience with using PVA as support material and dissolving it? Does that work well? Might make my custom Prusa a dual-extruder version then, still haven't printed the frame so I have the option to make it wider...

Another reason for me to use a raft, is when changing colors often, amm traces of the previous color go into the raft.
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roller
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Re: Coffee please. dash of milk, no sugar

Post by roller » Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:11 pm

Yeah. PVA was painful to print well. Obviously you dont need great print quality from it but supports would get knocked over due to print issues and ruin the prints. HIPS seems a better solution. It dissolves in limonene and the print output seems much easier to tune... but I've not tried HIPS myself. I went the Up/commercial path instead and moved away from open sourced based printers. Too much hassle.

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Re: Coffee please. dash of milk, no sugar

Post by stormychel » Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:18 pm

Probably... that's why I went with the UP!, not enough time/experience to start with an open-source printer.

But I still want to make that Prusa... really need a project :)
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roller
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Re: Coffee please. dash of milk, no sugar

Post by roller » Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:35 pm

It's great starting with an open source based printer because you have to learn a lot. Great experience to bring to a printer like the Up ... you understand what's going wrong better (though it took me ages to understand why my new Up came with a pre-blocked extruder OOTB)

It's horrible starting with an open source printer because you have to learn so much. It is much better these days though ... fundamental designs are pretty good and need less tuning ... the software has been ironed out and you can dial a printer in need ing to onyl tweak 3 to 4 variables ... the base of knowledge is more readily established though still painful to access. On this last point I still have the same complaint with the Up. We get the same questions over and over here on the forums ... cleaining nozzle, how to print with PLA, how to print with non OEM ABS, why is my print skewing. I've talked ot others about a wiki but it's gone nowhere so I will probably sort one out myself at the end of the year (once uni is done).

stormychel
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Re: Coffee please. dash of milk, no sugar

Post by stormychel » Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:58 pm

Good idea, if you need help on a wiki let me know.

I was thinking about something similar with filament... sharing experiences with brands, vendors, settings...

TYPE COLOR VENDOR WEIGHT TEMP LABEL TEMP UP! TOP DOOR COMMENT

PLA White 123inkt.nl 1 kg 190-200 PLA OPEN OK
PLA Black 123inkt.nl 1 kg 190-200 PLA OPEN DOES NOT WORK / HUMIDITY? / AIR?
PLA Pink 123inkt.nl 1 kg 190-200 ? ? ?
ABS White pp3dp.com 0,750kg 260-270 ABS CLOSED PERFECT
ABS Black techswap3d.be 1 kg 220-230 ABS-30 CLOSED OK
ABS Lightblue techswap3d.be 1 kg 220-230 ABS-10 CLOSED OK / needs testing with ABS-20 to improve raft
ABS Magenta techswap3d.be 1 kg 220-230 ABS-30 CLOSED PERFECT
ABS Black 123inkt.nl 1 kg 220-260 ABS-30 CLOSED ?
PLA Green Glowfill 123inkt.nl 1 kg 190-220 PLA-10 OPEN OK / needs testing with PLA-20 to improve raft
PLA Orange 123inkt.nl 1 kg 190-200 PLA-10 OPEN PERFECT
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roller
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Re: Coffee please. dash of milk, no sugar

Post by roller » Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:05 pm

Drew has posted a spreadsheet of his temps for filaments. But these are prone to variation over time and across printers. It would be more to cover the mods and the most common issues/requests.

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