Wall thickness - single line?

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jan
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Wall thickness - single line?

Post by jan » Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:47 am

Hello,

I’m wondering if it’s possible to print thin vertical walls with a single line thickness, comparable to the thin walls that are generated for the support. So far I was only able to print at least two line thick walls (1mm), if I reduce the wall thickness of the model to 0.5 mm, nothing is printed.

Thanks for any suggestions!

eyUP
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Re: Wall thickness - single line?

Post by eyUP » Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:28 am

It's impossible for the software to create single line thickness's.
The 3D shape is sliced into layers of closed polygons which means thin wall-like features have to be enclosed by two lines of extrusion. The software will drop features it can't enclose.

As the new 1.17 software and ROM update supports 0.15mm layers I'm presuming that thinner walls are now possible - have you tried the update ?

jan
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Re: Wall thickness - single line?

Post by jan » Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:33 am

Understand, thank you!
Actually, I was trying to model the support structure in 3d, including the single walls. I have a very fragile model, using a lot of thin lines (2mm). It’s impossible to break apart the support structure without destroying the model. So I was hoping to build the supporting elements right below the thin curved lines…

virtox
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Re: Wall thickness - single line?

Post by virtox » Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:56 am

I just did a small test with the 0.15 mm thickness, a tube of 1 cm diameter with 0.5 mm prints empty.
But with 0.6 mm it prints ok: double walls though, but close enough so that they seem to fuse.

roller
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Re: Wall thickness - single line?

Post by roller » Sat Oct 27, 2012 2:47 pm

I am finding walls that thin appear inconsistently. Apparently the official supported minimum is 1mm. How well/often are you able to print 0.6? Which software version are you using?

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wilsonj
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Re: Wall thickness - single line?

Post by wilsonj » Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:25 pm

Before 1.17 I could print walls at .8mm and now .6mm consistently.That's on a Plus not Mini if it makes any difference.
Regards
Jamie
3DPrinterGear.com.au

roller
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Re: Wall thickness - single line?

Post by roller » Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:15 pm

I would presume it's entirely a software choice as that's where the toolpath is generated. Interesting, I really need to get it going on Windows.

amd-tec
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Re: Wall thickness - single line?

Post by amd-tec » Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:26 pm

Anyone ever measured the real wall thickness? I tried to print 0.7mm wall, but it came out with 1mm thickness.
I have UP plus, and V18+latest ROM.
"3D design with intelligent printing"
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amd-tec
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Re: Wall thickness - single line?

Post by amd-tec » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:26 pm

This is what I tested. From botton wall 2 mm, 1 mm and latest is 0.7 mm.
Wall thickness in cylider is 0.7 mm. 0.7 mm came out like 1 mm wall.

Thanks.
Attachments
wall test.png
wall test
wall test.png (19.37 KiB) Viewed 32620 times
"3D design with intelligent printing"
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pleppik
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Re: Wall thickness - single line?

Post by pleppik » Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:48 pm

amd-tec wrote:Anyone ever measured the real wall thickness? I tried to print 0.7mm wall, but it came out with 1mm thickness.
I have UP plus, and V18+latest ROM.
That sounds right.

The software won't print a wall less than two lines thick, and that's 1mm. If your model has a wall between 0.5mm and 1.0mm my experience is that it will print it as a 1mm wall. Walls less than 0.5mm don't get printed at all.

I don't think it's realistic to expect an FDM printer to accurately print narrow walls. Some other printers will print narrow walls as a single line, but that's always going to be 0.5mm thick, so the wall thickness still will not be dimensionally accurate.

amd-tec
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Re: Wall thickness - single line?

Post by amd-tec » Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:23 pm

"That sounds right.

The software won't print a wall less than two lines thick, and that's 1mm. If your model has a wall between 0.5mm and 1.0mm my experience is that it will print it as a 1mm wall. Walls less than 0.5mm don't get printed at all.

I don't think it's realistic to expect an FDM printer to accurately print narrow walls. Some other printers will print narrow walls as a single line, but that's always going to be 0.5mm thick, so the wall thickness still will not be dimensionally accurate."

Ok, nice to know that, so no needs to try that again ;).

Should it be mentioned that when printed with 0.15 mm layer all walls between 0.6 - 1.0 mm printed in 1 mm width in other words software recognize walls between 0.6 - 1.0 mm.
It perhaps mentioned, but could be that I havent understod all what I have read!
Thanks.
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roller
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Re: Wall thickness - single line?

Post by roller » Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:52 am

The minimum thickness the Up! software will recognise and print is affected by orientation. The minimum is 0.7-0.8 but it seems to be only check perpendicular to the X and Y so an oblique wall can be a little thinner and still get printed.
I don't think it's realistic to expect an FDM printer to accurately print narrow walls. Some other printers will print narrow walls as a single line, but that's always going to be 0.5mm thick, so the wall thickness still will not be dimensionally accurate.
Many FDM printers support single walls that have no dimension at all - printing these as a single wall. All reprap slicers follow this convention now (maybe a rare exotic exception). Some print thin walls as a single thickness wall, some as a double, some as a double with some fill and some not at all but it is certainly true that once you get less than 2 walls thickness it is hard for and FDM to accurately and reliable reproduce the wall thickness and keep consistent print quality - it can be done (down to the nozzle thickness plus a fraction) but its really really tricky.

mr6k
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Re: Wall thickness - single line?

Post by mr6k » Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:21 am

This test piece shows the wall capabilities when printed. Was posted on this forum some time in November when the subject came up.
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:8859

While the wall thickness is limited to around 1mm, those looking at this thread but not necessarily having a printer should bear in mind that we are only talking about thin walls. The printer 0.2mm or later 0.15mm spec still applies. For example while a minimum wall thickness maybe 1mm any offsets on the wall can be as good as 0.15mm. A good test is to create a small pyramid, When printed, the edges of each face are very fine and the angular face slope is very fine. i.e. The edges and faces are not 1mm steps but 0.15mm steps.

cheers

Peter

walter
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Re: Wall thickness - single line?

Post by walter » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:56 am

Here's the thicknesses I get, modeled vs measured:

0.1 to 0.4 -> no wall
0.5 -> 0.86
0.6 -> 0.94
0.7 -> 0.96
0.8 -> 1.01
0.9 -> 1.03
1.0 -> 1.06
1.1 -> 1.12
1.2 -> 1.27
1.3 -> 1.38
1.4 -> 1.46
1.5 -> 1.64
1.6 -> 1.61
1.7 -> 1.74
1.8 -> 1.82
1.9 -> 1.94
2.0 -> 2.03

I usually try to avoid wall thicknesses of 1.1 to 1.5mm, unless I want two walls with a gap between.

You can generate thin wall test prints with http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:42623

roller
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Re: Wall thickness - single line?

Post by roller » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:01 am

Walter, I think you will also find those will change with orientation. Turn your model 45 degrees and you will get different results. Essentially any wall below 0.8mm cannot be guaranteed to print and you may just find a gap where a wall is supposed to be.

In my case I just print scale architectural models and if anyone finds an application that will find all walls below a certain thickness in an STL and fatten them to a minimum size that would be great to know about.

Marcus
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Re: Wall thickness - single line?

Post by Marcus » Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:00 pm

@Walter
Thanks for sharing!

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josejuako
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Re: Wall thickness - single line?

Post by josejuako » Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:54 am

Walter thanks for all , I like very much your palette colors and all designs , congratulation .


J

walter
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Re: Wall thickness - single line?

Post by walter » Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:47 am

Thanks!

That's really good to know about the orientation. I had noticed walls less than .8mm were sometimes unreliable, but didn't know why, so I just stopped using anything thinner. Looks like I need to try more rotated test prints.

roller
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Re: Wall thickness - single line?

Post by roller » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:43 am

Someone suggested the software should highlight walls that would be lost - this would be a really nice feature. Sometimes I have been able to get away with 0.6mm walls and sometimes I lose most that are under 0.9mm.

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