Can the edges, surfaces and holes be improved?

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hajime
Posts: 143
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2013 5:51 am

Can the edges, surfaces and holes be improved?

Post by hajime » Sun Jul 13, 2014 5:29 am

Hello experienced users, I need some suggestions on making nice printings. As you see from the photos, on each side of each hole, the surface is not flat. There are some inclines on the left and right edges. What are they? Also, on the surface, there are lots of lines. Is Acetone the one to use to remove the lines?

On both sides, the edges are not solid but consist of S-like lines with holes. How can I make the edges solid and flat without holes?

In one photo, it shows that there is a strange line on the surface. What is that? Is there a way to eliminate it?

I used the default settings but then chose best/fine as the print option.

Thank you.
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strange line.jpg
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strange1.jpg
strange1.jpg (59.72 KiB) Viewed 12739 times
holes.jpg
holes.jpg (55.69 KiB) Viewed 12742 times

Marauderz
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:34 pm

Re: Can the edges, surfaces and holes be improved?

Post by Marauderz » Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:33 pm

I'm a new user like you, so my views would be different from the experienced ones. Basically, 3D printing ISN'T perfect yet. You said you've just started out, waited you get your first filament jam, nozzle jam, warp print, air print. You'll know it's now perfect yet.

From what I can see the ridges, edges, etc. etc. Those are all the by products of how 3D printing works, you can try and minimize them by altering the print parameters INCLUDING print orientation, but in the end the FINISH of an object isn't going to be perfect, you need to do the usual painting, sanding, filling, etc. etc.

That's from my point of view, let's see what the others will say. Would be great to know that my understanding is wrong and there's a way for it to work perfectly.

roller
Posts: 1622
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:09 pm
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: Can the edges, surfaces and holes be improved?

Post by roller » Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:29 pm

The "strange line" will be an artifact caused by a pause or direction change or similar. Watch your print and you will see what happens at this point over and over to produce the blemish. Essentially there is not an awful lot you can do about it except that if it is in an awkward place for your print you can change the orientation of the print and the location will most likely move. Unfortunately, you will not know where unless you print. You can clean up blemishes with a sharp knife and fix the colour of your abrasions by appyling some heat - I use a quick flick of heat from a mini blowtorch (very, very brief)

The S shape print is normal layer infill. This is what it looks like when it is not "smooshed" down like it is on the top layer on the print. It has to be this way so that it peels away from the raft and support material. If it were smooshed in it wouldn't peel away. The only way to get a similar results on a base is to print raftless ("no raft" option) on a smooth material like glass. Then you will get a smooth appearance on the base.

So there is nothing wrong with your printer. This is the nature of FDM printing.

ming
Posts: 194
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:06 am
Location: Georgia USA

Re: Can the edges, surfaces and holes be improved?

Post by ming » Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:36 pm

i noticed small repeat streaks on the z axis sometimes because either there is a non smooth location on the bearing / slide or the belt and if s difficult to avoid even repositioning the part and a fine file and acetone swab will fix it right up so i dont bother

the S you are referring to is due to the fill not full and there is no FULL FILL option. what can be improved for aesthetic wise you just have to have more full layers on the surface. but i am guessing your picture of the S is not on completed print part (or not final Z height) The software is not optimum because i do experience the "S" on layers that are not final especially on thin wall parts but again i use a acetone swab and cures that problem right up.

A lot of options to print to get the best results by orientation and picking the surface.

Its all about managing expectations because the FDM will never be as good as a molded part finish if thats what you are expecting than FDM is not the route.

Acetone fuming or swabbing helps
sandblasting as well
painting as well
but all those are secondary process and requires patience.
Dream@night / Holdit@sameday

ming
Posts: 194
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:06 am
Location: Georgia USA

Re: Can the edges, surfaces and holes be improved?

Post by ming » Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:40 pm

BTW
dont be afraid to undersize the holes and use a drill to get better hole shapes and sizes.
NOthing wrong with counter bore holes csk is tougher on FDM and worst if aligned not along the Z axis.
Dream@night / Holdit@sameday

hajime
Posts: 143
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2013 5:51 am

Re: Can the edges, surfaces and holes be improved?

Post by hajime » Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:06 am

ming wrote:BTW
dont be afraid to undersize the holes and use a drill to get better hole shapes and sizes.
NOthing wrong with counter bore holes csk is tougher on FDM and worst if aligned not along the Z axis.
Thanks. That is the problem. I designed the holes as normal holes rather than counter bore holes. Don't know why it made seemingly counter bore holes. What do you mean by holes not aligned along the Z axis? Do you mean if the rotational axis through the center of the hole is not in parallel to the Z axis (vertical direction - height- of the build plate), then I get this problem?

hajime
Posts: 143
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2013 5:51 am

Re: Can the edges, surfaces and holes be improved?

Post by hajime » Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:13 am

ming wrote: the S you are referring to is due to the fill not full and there is no FULL FILL option. what can be improved for aesthetic wise you just have to have more full layers on the surface. but i am guessing your picture of the S is not on completed print part (or not final Z height) The software is not optimum because i do experience the "S" on layers that are not final especially on thin wall parts but again i use a acetone swab and cures that problem right up.

A lot of options to print to get the best results by orientation and picking the surface.

Its all about managing expectations because the FDM will never be as good as a molded part finish if thats what you are expecting than FDM is not the route.

Acetone fuming or swabbing helps
sandblasting as well
painting as well
but all those are secondary process and requires patience.
Thanks for the suggestions. How many layers do you recommend? The S is unfortunately on completed print part. I see the S pattern on both sides (the surface touching the build plate and the surface on the top of the completed print part)

By "Acetone swabbing", do you mean rub the surface using acetone? What kind of sandblasting tool do you recommend?

ming
Posts: 194
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:06 am
Location: Georgia USA

Re: Can the edges, surfaces and holes be improved?

Post by ming » Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:02 am

hajime wrote:
ming wrote:BTW
dont be afraid to undersize the holes and use a drill to get better hole shapes and sizes.
NOthing wrong with counter bore holes csk is tougher on FDM and worst if aligned not along the Z axis.
Thanks. That is the problem. I designed the holes as normal holes rather than counter bore holes. Don't know why it made seemingly counter bore holes. What do you mean by holes not aligned along the Z axis? Do you mean if the rotational axis through the center of the hole is not in parallel to the Z axis (vertical direction - height- of the build plate), then I get this problem?
Best hole is when hole center axis is parallel to Z axis
BUt not always thats possible so when thats not possible i undersize the hole and drill it after print dont undersize too much or else when you drill the edge of the hole is not solid and in the mesh.
Dream@night / Holdit@sameday

ming
Posts: 194
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:06 am
Location: Georgia USA

Re: Can the edges, surfaces and holes be improved?

Post by ming » Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:09 am

hajime wrote:
ming wrote: the S you are referring to is due to the fill not full and there is no FULL FILL option. what can be improved for aesthetic wise you just have to have more full layers on the surface. but i am guessing your picture of the S is not on completed print part (or not final Z height) The software is not optimum because i do experience the "S" on layers that are not final especially on thin wall parts but again i use a acetone swab and cures that problem right up.

A lot of options to print to get the best results by orientation and picking the surface.

Its all about managing expectations because the FDM will never be as good as a molded part finish if thats what you are expecting than FDM is not the route.

Acetone fuming or swabbing helps
sandblasting as well
painting as well
but all those are secondary process and requires patience.
Thanks for the suggestions. How many layers do you recommend? The S is unfortunately on completed print part. I see the S pattern on both sides (the surface touching the build plate and the surface on the top of the completed print part)

By "Acetone swabbing", do you mean rub the surface using acetone? What kind of sandblasting tool do you recommend?
Depends if i am printing final build or first prototype - i use the max layers when i build final part
If you design the part put a radius edge the layer thickness you select on the edge and it will cover up a tad of the S. but still will be there but not so obvious.

Acetone swab is when i dab my cotton swab into acetone bottle and swab it gently one or two strokes and the part will be shinny and the "S" gone :) you will have to try and test different methods and get your best results. Dont over do the acetome because it can damage your part and color fade
Dream@night / Holdit@sameday

hajime
Posts: 143
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2013 5:51 am

Re: Can the edges, surfaces and holes be improved?

Post by hajime » Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:48 am

Thanks ming for the suggestions. So, the cotton swab is like a magic wand!

ming
Posts: 194
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:06 am
Location: Georgia USA

Re: Can the edges, surfaces and holes be improved?

Post by ming » Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:11 am

hajime wrote:Thanks ming for the suggestions. So, the cotton swab is like a magic wand!
Welcome
The magic is in your head not the tools here.
Dream@night / Holdit@sameday

roller
Posts: 1622
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:09 pm
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: Can the edges, surfaces and holes be improved?

Post by roller » Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:54 pm

the S you are referring to is due to the fill not full and there is no FULL FILL option. what can be improved for aesthetic wise you just have to have more full layers on the surface. but i am guessing your picture of the S is not on completed print part (or not final Z height) The software is not optimum because i do experience the "S" on layers that are not final especially on thin wall parts but again i use a acetone swab and cures that problem right up.
As usually ming ... making up stuff without experience means you mislead people. This is just wrong - theses are the shell layers not part of the infill and appears this way so it lifts off support ... read what I said earlier.
BTW
dont be afraid to undersize the holes and use a drill to get better hole shapes and sizes.
NOthing wrong with counter bore holes csk is tougher on FDM and worst if aligned not along the Z axis.
Horrible advice. As you point out earlier Up doesn't do 100% infill ... in fact most infills with an Up are pretty open and as a result the majority of the strength comes from the shell layers. By undersizing holes and drilling them out you are taking away a lot of that strength and weakening the hole print. The print will be extremely prone to failure are these holes in the future.

Unfortunately ming likes to spring forth with advice not based on experience but based on badly engineered conjecture. A number of us more experienced printers are just tired of arguing with him and his fairy tales.

FYI, brushing areas of print with a cotton bud of acetone generally looks plain ugly. If you want to smooth the finish consider an acetone vapour bath. In only a few minutes you will get a wonderful consistent gloss across your whole print. Brushing on almost never looks good to a discerning eye.

doraemon
Posts: 94
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:37 am

Re: Can the edges, surfaces and holes be improved?

Post by doraemon » Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:15 pm

For things like holes, I find that since the Up! often prints it slightly undersize I don't have to adjust the file, only clean up afterwards with a one-size up drill or reamer. This shouldn't remove enough material to significantly weaken the outside shell; definitely do not try to drill oversize by too much! If the hole is meant to hold a press-fit dowel pin, I don't even bother reaming. The slight amount it's undersize yields a good interference fit.

ming
Posts: 194
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:06 am
Location: Georgia USA

Re: Can the edges, surfaces and holes be improved?

Post by ming » Tue Jul 15, 2014 6:42 pm

Like Roller said
Do not try it unless you are experienced and im very new and i have been happy with my results.

This is definitely fall into the realm of "not for the inexperience" and seems like apply also to those "overly experienced" as well". please don't use acetone its very harmful to the ABS part and very dangerous it may smooth out your part if you are not careful. Pleaseeeeee keep trying and stay with what has been tried and true someday you will be successful.

OLDer they get the more experience and more stubborn they are (spoken lightly).
Dream@night / Holdit@sameday

ming
Posts: 194
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:06 am
Location: Georgia USA

Re: Can the edges, surfaces and holes be improved?

Post by ming » Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:36 pm

try under sizing a hole you may find out it may work for you to ream/drill out

if you are concerned that drilling a hole will ruin your part then pause and look closely when the part is layering up the hole (before top layers) see how thick of the hole wall is before that will give you some indication how much you can undersize it. whether its 10% of the thickness or 30% thats up to you depending if the hole axis is perpendicular or parallel or oblique from the Z axis.

Again some ASSumptions that you are drilling or reaming pass the hole wall was made. Thats just pure one ASS umptions.
Dream@night / Holdit@sameday

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